A .net version of DreamHost?

A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: defective
Posted on: 2005-04-30 22:03:00

I am fanatical about DreamHost's service. I've never seen any other host come close to DreamHost's reliability, quick resolution, and honesty.

I would love DreamHost to offer Windows hosting, I would love to be able to host every site with DreamHost.

I have a project that requires .net, which means I need to host it somewhere else. Does anyone have experience with a Windows host that can touch DreamHost with a ten-foot pole?

Thanks.

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: macmanx
Posted on: 2005-05-01 00:21:00

DreamHost has refused to offer Windows hosting on a number of occasions. A search of these forums should turn up a few of those refusals and the reasons given.

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: knitsmitts
Posted on: 2005-05-01 08:42:00

What you need to find out is why they require .NET, in particular, is it because management doesn't know about anything else.

You can replicate a lot of stuff you find in *IX systems in Windows, but it isn't easy.




Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: jrahaim
Posted on: 2005-05-03 05:37:00

Your kidding right?

-Jason

I40.com - Home Page
MP3Mystic - Personal Streaming Music server.
(No longer hosted with Dreamhost)

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: defective
Posted on: 2005-06-13 21:35:00

Sometimes you don't have the choice of what platform to run on. I believe DreamHost has made an excellent decision to stick with *nix hosting. As a customer, I wouldn't want it any other way. But I also need a good .net host. (and mono just isn't there yet, though I really hope it will be a success)

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: guice
Posted on: 2005-06-14 11:31:00

In reply to:

I've never seen any other host come close to DreamHost's reliability, quick resolution, and honesty.


Add .NET into the mix and b-bye the reliability. :(

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: decswxaqz
Posted on: 2005-06-14 12:22:00

I don't see why stability should suffer. They'd probably have to go on different servers anyway, running different db programs and apps.
It'd mean having to set up a whole new system, and depending on what the control panel is programmed in, a whole new control panel, or one that can work under Windows. Support would have to be provided, which equals a lot more staff or more work for staff now.

I'd like to try a few little projects with .net too, but I still prefer unix type hosting.

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: mike3k
Posted on: 2005-06-15 06:26:00

If Dreamhost offered Windows hosting, I would switch to someone else that was pure Linux.


Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: guice
Posted on: 2005-06-15 06:31:00

Well, I didn't mean on the current servers. They will have to get whole new servers for this as .NET is winbloze only. I was more getting across the lack of stability on the windoze platforms. ;)

Add .NET and you're relability will go the way of Satan on the new platforms.

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: scjessey
Posted on: 2005-06-15 06:35:00

In reply to:

If Dreamhost offered Windows hosting, I would switch to someone else that was pure Linux.


I don't understand that statement at all. Is this an open-source or bust thing? That seems rather limiting to me.

I'm no fan of Windows hosting, but if DreamHost chose to host separate IIS-based servers, I'd have no objection whatsoever. Indeed, I would be able to move to of my ASP-based sites over. I also have a ColdFusion site I'd rather have hosted here, although DreamHost probably wouldn't want to pay for the ColdFusion Application Server necessary to host it.

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: kchrist
Posted on: 2005-06-15 08:12:00

I don't understand that statement at all. Is this an open-source or bust thing? That seems rather limiting to me.

Oh, I don't know. I'm hardly an open source zealot but I appreciate it and do see the attraction of using an ISP or web host who uses exclusively open source software. I probably wouldn't move my sites, but the fact that DH was all Linux (and my preferred distro, no less) did influence my decision to buy hosting here.

Adding Windows servers into the mix would eventually affect everyone. Unless they were willing to charge more for them, the expense of buying the licenses and hiring people to administer the systems would be passed on to all of us, whether we use those systems or not.

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Iri
Posted on: 2005-06-15 10:52:00

In reply to:

Unless they were willing to charge more for them,


I believe this to be the trend with hosts offering Windows

Edit: Personally I do not have anything against Windows webhosting. Properly maintained Windows is just as reliable as properly maintained Linux, IIS 6 is very good as webservers go, and .NET isn't bad either. The one area Windows is lacking is the shell, albeit this can be remedied through Microsoft's freebie Windows Services for Unix (or MKS Toolkit, or whatever).Edited by Iri on 06/15/05 12:28 PM (server time).

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Jeff @ DreamHost
Posted on: 2005-06-15 14:23:00

While we appreciate the benefits of open source, our focus is largely based on practical matters - quite simple, for the stuff we do, open source tools are the best available. We're definitely not zealots here, and we do from time to time support proprietary technologies when they make sense.

We also understand that sometimes, the quality of a given solution outweighs the lack of access to source code. For example, most people here are using Mac OS X as a workstation OS, even though it's not (entirely) open source.

This whole conversation is a bit moot, though - the odds of us supporting the hosting of Windows-based servers is really really low. Even if no negative effects impacted our Linux-based customers (I think there would be), our Dev/Admin team would much rather take a boot to the head than deal with them.

There's money to be made in that market, but we like to A) have pride in the quality of what we offer, and B) sleep soundly at night.

- Jeff @ DreamHost
- DH Discussion Forum Admin

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Iri
Posted on: 2005-06-15 15:09:00

In reply to:

A) have pride in the quality of what we offer



Does that mean that you are zealots after all?

In reply to:

B) sleep soundly at night.



You mean no-one at DH would know how to admin a Windows server?

Or something else?

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Jeff @ DreamHost
Posted on: 2005-06-15 15:51:00

> Does that mean that you are zealots after all?

I don't think so, no. A zealot isn't someone who takes pride in something. A zealot is someone whose narrow world view and ideology takes precedence over practicality.

We like open source. We like the fact that our servers aren't locked into a platform provided by a single company. We like the fact that we have access to source code and can make changes as bugs are found, or expect others to do so. We like the fact that we usually don't have to worry about proprietary and/or obfuscated file formats or protocols that we can't switch away from.

These things are essentially features of open source - and those that we gain a ton of benefit from. However, if we need a certain type of functionality and there is no reasonably good open source equivalent, we'll consider the closed source version.

A good example of this is our own work-stations. DreamHost's employees have been slowly moving toward the Mac OS X platform for quite some time now (based on their own choice - DH employees get to choose their own hardware/OS, within a budget). Pretty much everyone has a G5 and dual 19" monitors on their desk now.

There are some holdouts, but only a minority are using Linux or Windows on their desktop. Why didn't we just use Linux from the start, or transition to it? Because Linux on the desktop just isn't that good yet (a matter of opinion, of course).

Sharp contrast to servers, where we obviously quite love it. :>

The fact that something is open source is, to us, a great feature. It's also a feature that's most important for servers, but perhaps not so much for workstations (though open formats obviously are still important there - Apple has been relatively good in this regard). Ease of use, application availability, etc. are more important there.

> You mean no-one at DH would know how to admin a Windows server?

I'd put any of our senior admins up (perhaps with a couple weeks of training) against the average MCSE and expect them to do just fine.

What I meant is that given all of the security issues, viruses, and the like that go along with Windows-based hosting it would make life a lot more 'interesting' for our staff, and not in a good way. That sort of problem may solve itself, though, as I wouldn't be surprised if they'd start looking for new jobs. :>

- Jeff @ DreamHost
- DH Discussion Forum Admin

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Iri
Posted on: 2005-06-15 16:36:00

In reply to:

A zealot isn't someone who takes pride in something. A zealot is someone whose narrow world view and ideology takes precedence over practicality.


Precisely. Remember that you said that you take pride in the quality of what you offer. Implication being that Linux quality is far and above better than Windows. That's both hogwash and zealotry. All too often the only argument against using Windows is that it is Windows. End of story. Linux is teh bestest, Windows is nothing but a swiss cheese, ra-ra. The real world is a whole lot different, and Windows is a lot better platform for servers than what the Linux zealots would have you believe. And they will have you believe, because they are vocal.

Any security professional worth their salt will look at the matter more objectively.

If you like open source then it's all well and good, but do keep in mind that open source does not automatically equal quality.

In reply to:

> You mean no-one at DH would know how to admin a Windows server?

I'd put any of our senior admins up (perhaps with a couple weeks of training) against the average MCSE and expect them to do just fine.


Pfft, you don't need training. MSCE is one of the most worthless certifications out there. I've spoken with a slew of MCSE certified IT people who didn't have a clue about the NT security model, or the OS particulars like NTFS ADS.

In reply to:

What I meant is that given all of the security issues, viruses, and the like that go along with Windows-based hosting it would make life a lot more 'interesting' for our staff, and not in a good way. That sort of problem may solve itself, though, as I wouldn't be surprised if they'd start looking for new jobs. :>


There's the zealotry peeking in :P Properly secured Windows does not have more security problems than Linux. When was the last time there was a critical patch to Linux kernel, and when was the last time you had a problem with such a patch? Also, IIS 5 was a very problematic web server, but IIS 6 has had a very impressive track record. Seriously, look outside the box. Windows can be just as secure as Linux.

To top it all off Windows has far superior management instrumentation for enterprise environment. Linux is only now starting to catch up to Windows in that sense.

I am not saying that Windows is better than Linux. I am OS agnostic. It just annoys me when the entirety of the argument is based on false premise born out of emotional reactions and outdated notions that were true a decade ago.

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: guice
Posted on: 2005-06-16 08:21:00

In reply to:

DH employees get to choose their own hardware/OS, within a budget


I need to work for DH! Why don't you have an office in Dallas!

In reply to:

Pfft, you don't need training. MSCE is one of the most worthless certifications out there. I've spoken with a slew of MCSE certified IT people who didn't have a clue about the NT security model, or the OS particulars like NTFS ADS.


I Have to agree. MSCE certification has become a joke. MS Certifications in general. Did you know you only require a ~70% or so to pass? That's not a certification, that's just a test.

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: conspicuous
Posted on: 2005-06-16 08:31:00

In reply to:

Why don't you have an office in Dallas!


Because they have a Dallas in the office!


Please be sure to tip your waitstaff, I'll be here all week, folks!

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Iri
Posted on: 2005-06-16 08:41:00

In reply to:

MSCE certification has become a joke. MS Certifications in general. Did you know you only require a ~70% or so to pass? That's not a certification, that's just a test.


I had a co-worker who went to one of these week-long MCSE boot camps. He got his certification alright, but the net gain in his level of knowledge was a round zero. He didn't know how to partition a hard drive before the boot camp, and he didn't know how to do it afterwards. All they taught him was how to pass the MCSE exam, nothing more. It was then that I lost all respect for the MCSE certification.

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: kchrist
Posted on: 2005-06-16 09:42:00

He didn't know how to partition a hard drive before the boot camp, and he didn't know how to do it afterwards. All they taught him was how to pass the MCSE exam, nothing more. It was then that I lost all respect for the MCSE certification.

The problem here isn't with the exam or the certification, it's with the "boot camp" style of training. These classes, by design, focus on passing exams, not on actual education. Taking actual training courses will take a lot longer than a week, but you're guaranteed to learn a lot more.

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: kchrist
Posted on: 2005-06-16 10:01:00

Remember that you said that you take pride in the quality of what you offer.

Maybe he was referring to the quality of the service?

I drive Hondas because I'm happy with their style and quality, but I don't think this makes me a Honda zealot. I would even recommend Honda to someone needing a new car (assuming their requirements can be met by an available model), but I wouldn't argue with them if they bought a Toyota instead. Personal preference != zealotry.

Implication being that Linux quality is far and above better than Windows. That's both hogwash and zealotry.

No, it isn't. All other things being equal, to someone experienced with Linux and not Windows, Linux is far and above the better choice. And vice versa.

Windows can be properly secured, but how many *nix sysadmins have the necessary knowledge and experience to do so? As a Linux sysadmin myself, I wouldn't want to maintain a Windows (or Netware, etc) server in a production environment because I'm simply not knowledable and experienced enough to do so.

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Iri
Posted on: 2005-06-16 10:52:00

In reply to:

The problem here isn't with the exam or the certification, it's with the "boot camp" style of training. These classes, by design, focus on passing exams, not on actual education. Taking actual training courses will take a lot longer than a week, but you're guaranteed to learn a lot more.


The problem, IMHO, is that the exam does not weed out this style of "preparation." Ergo, it's a badly designed certification process.

In reply to:

Maybe he was referring to the quality of the service?

I drive Hondas because I'm happy with their style and quality, but I don't think this makes me a Honda zealot. I would even recommend Honda to someone needing a new car (assuming their requirements can be met by an available model), but I wouldn't argue with them if they bought a Toyota instead. Personal preference != zealotry.


Indeed. Would you argue, though, that Honda is obviously superior quality to Toyota? I do not think you would. A zealot would be someone who insists that Chevrolet is better than Honda or Toyota solely through the virtue of being American-made. That kind of an attitude is counter-productive and would promote lax standards from Chevy because they know they have a market no matter how crappy they'd be.

In reply to:

No, it isn't. All other things being equal, to someone experienced with Linux and not Windows, Linux is far and above the better choice. And vice versa.

Windows can be properly secured, but how many *nix sysadmins have the necessary knowledge and experience to do so? As a Linux sysadmin myself, I wouldn't want to maintain a Windows (or Netware, etc) server in a production environment because I'm simply not knowledable and experienced enough to do so.


That would bring the matter back to the skill level of the administrator, not the quality of the platform, now wouldn't it?

It's perfectly alright to be more comfortable with Linux, but why would you make it sound like the "other" platform is just plain crappy with comments like "all of the security issues, viruses, and the like that go along with Windows-based hosting?" I'm not comfortable with QNX, yet I do not go around lambasting it and acknowledge that it's a viable platform as much as other platforms do. What Jeff said here is that they chose and like Linux because Linux is teh win through the virtue of being Linux, and Windows is crappy basically because a bunch of people who use terms like M$ and Micro$ucks Winblows say so.

It's partially an ego thing: an IT professional does not want their decision of platform or technology choice questioned. It's excessively commonplace in both Windows and Unix world, but it's also counter-productive -- in my experience the ability to avoid this kind of a pitfall is what separates the truly outstanding IT people from the good ones. If you want to read the opinions of an IT professional who keeps an open mind and is able to read the industry carefully because of this, read Ed Stroligo's articles over at Overclockers.com front page. The guy is, curiously, not very popular in zealot circles.

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Jeff @ DreamHost
Posted on: 2005-06-16 12:41:00

> Implication being that Linux quality is far and above
> better than Windows. That's both hogwash and zealotry.

I believe that it's safe to say that we believe that Linux quality is far above that of Windows - for our purposes, at least. While you might be able to make a case for it being hogwash, I don't believe it's zealotry.

A zealot is someone who will refuse to acknowledge any points made by someone who disagrees with them. We won't do that - in some cases, Windows probably is a better option (ie. if you want, for some reason, Frontpage/ASP/.NET support).

> If you like open source then it's all well and good, but
> do keep in mind that open source does not automatically
> equal quality.

I completely agree, and never said otherwise. I do believe that on the average for servers - particularly when it comes to security issues - open source tends to result in better implementations as "many eyes make all bugs shallow", resulting in speedy fixes. This is an opinion, but an opinion does not make a zealot.

For what it's worth, I also believe that open source tends to be detrimental when it comes to usability, as user interface design rarely benefits from design by committee. I much prefer user interface designs when they are done by a small group of trained professionals with UI/HI design experience.

Different methods, different needs...

> Pfft, you don't need training. MSCE is one of the
> most worthless certifications out there.

Well, I was being charitable. I didn't want to offend anyone. :>

> Properly secured Windows does not have more
> security problems than Linux. When was the last
> time there was a critical patch to Linux kernel, and
> when was the last time you had a problem with
> such a patch?

I think the concern is that given Microsoft's track history, we simply don't trust them - and for reasons a lot more recent than 10 years ago. Since we - and you - don't have access to their source code, we can't really verify that they are doing their job security-wise. Plus, if we take a chance and decide down the road that they aren't doing their part to make our servers secure, we can't exactly switch to another vendor that will take our concerns into consideration (the "lock in" that they benefit from so much).

We've been contacted by Microsoft directly on a number of occasions, and have discussed all of this with them. While we never seriously considered switching (we're doing quite well already as a Linux-based host, business-wise), we've listened to what they had to say. Even if Windows were in every way just as good as Linux, there would have to be a substantial increase in benefit to us and our customers for us to even consider the huge undertaking that would be supporting it.

Call that zealotry if you like, though to me it just seems like good business sense.

- Jeff @ DreamHost
- DH Discussion Forum Admin

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Jeff @ DreamHost
Posted on: 2005-06-16 12:48:00

> What Jeff said here is that they chose and like
> Linux because Linux is teh win through the virtue
> of being Linux, and Windows is crappy basically
> because a bunch of people who use terms like M$
> and Micro$ucks Winblows say so.

I think you must have me - and DreamHost - confused with someone else. I know people like those you speak of, but I think your characterization of us is a bit incorrect.

Linux is good for some things, rather awful (in my opinion) for others. Holding an opinion does not mean that opinion is invalid, or that the holder of that opinion is a zealot.

I've said it before, but it's worth repeating: Different methods, different needs.

- Jeff @ DreamHost
- DH Discussion Forum Admin

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Iri
Posted on: 2005-06-16 13:36:00

That was a good post, Jeff. There was no zealotry there :)

In reply to:

I believe that it's safe to say that we believe that Linux quality is far above that of Windows - for our purposes, at least. While you might be able to make a case for it being hogwash,


I could make a case, but that would result in a long and drawn out argument :P

In reply to:

I completely agree, and never said otherwise. I do believe that on the average for servers - particularly when it comes to security issues - open source tends to result in better implementations as "many eyes make all bugs shallow", resulting in speedy fixes. This is an opinion, but an opinion does not make a zealot.


As Bruce Schneier said, simply publishing the code does not automatically mean that people will examine it for security flaws. Security researchers are fickle and busy people. They do not have the time to examine every piece of source code that is published.

The notion that open source automagically means that there are many eyes that will find all the flaws is a myth. It enables you to review the code, but it does not make you review the code.

That said, Linux security has been audited pretty thoroughly, though I'd argue that it's still trailing behind FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD.

In reply to:

For what it's worth, I also believe that open source tends to be detrimental when it comes to usability, as user interface design rarely benefits from design by committee. I much prefer user interface designs when they are done by a small group of trained professionals with UI/HI design experience.

Different methods, different needs...


No argument there. Although I would posit that interface-by-committee approach doesn't always work either... think Microsoft Bob, or the infamous "My Computer" spectacle...

In reply to:


Well, I was being charitable. I didn't want to offend anyone. :>


Now why on earth wouldn't you want to do that? I tell the dumb-as-a-rock MCSEs exactly how much I think they're worth.

In reply to:

I think the concern is that given Microsoft's track history, we simply don't trust them - and for reasons a lot more recent than 10 years ago.


The thing is that I've had an Internet-facing Win2K box going for four years straight now and no-one has hacked it yet. If I were to believe everything I hear from the Linux community, that box would be a warez and kiddie porn hub by now -- and I'm reasonably sure it isn't.

I personally do not use anti-spyware software on my Windows box. I do have an anti-virus software, but more as a forensic tool and without real-time scanning. I do not need those kinds of tools because my box is otherwise secure. People who rely on anti-virus software on Windows to keep them secure have their entire security setup backwards; the AV should be the last line of defense, not the first. Yet that is what most people consider as "securing" Windows. Ergo, their security fails miserably. Ergo, Windows must suck. As I've said, Windows is an advanced users' platform...

In reply to:

Since we - and you - don't have access to their source code,


Who says I don't? :>

In reply to:

we can't really verify that they are doing their job security-wise.


The few leaked reports of third-party audits suggest that the code is actually pretty well written. If you are a major customer of Microsoft's and security is important to you, they will give you access Windows source code -- so they're not operating in complete secrecy.

In reply to:

Plus, if we take a chance and decide down the road that they aren't doing their part to make our servers secure, we can't exactly switch to another vendor that will take our concerns into consideration (the "lock in" that they benefit from so much).


That's the best argument I've heard for not using Windows so far...

In reply to:

We've been contacted by Microsoft directly on a number of occasions, and have discussed all of this with them. While we never seriously considered switching (we're doing quite well already as a Linux-based host, business-wise), we've listened to what they had to say. Even if Windows were in every way just as good as Linux, there would have to be a substantial increase in benefit to us and our customers for us to even consider the huge undertaking that would be supporting it.


I do think that for Dreamhost Linux is the best choice as a platform. It keeps the costs down, it's faster than the BSD unix variants, reasonably secure, and allows for a healthy degree of agility in business decisions.

In reply to:

I think you must have me - and DreamHost - confused with someone else. I know people like those you speak of, but I think your characterization of us is a bit incorrect.


Fair enough -- perhaps I misread your statement.

In reply to:

Call that zealotry if you like,
.
.
Holding an opinion does not mean that opinion is invalid, or that the holder of that opinion is a zealot.


I think perhaps you must have me confused with someone else. I know people like those you speak of -- those who'd think that holding an opinion is zealotry -- but I think characterizating me as such an individual is a bit incorrect ;)

Opinion does not equal zealotry. Uncritical yammering of a boneheaded opinion you didn't come up with yourself, now that's zealotry. Choosing Linux over Windows is not zealotry, just as much as choosing Chevy over Toyota isn't zealotry. It's zealotry if you wave the American flag, go ra-ra over your American-made Chevy which must be better than some Japanese-made abomination, because you were told so, because it's American, so it must be better, and anyone telling you otherwise be damned -- and preferably shot, too.

I am not saying that you are like that, Jeff. All I am saying that some of the things you said sounded like the classic Linux-users' unreasoning hatred of Windows. If you have an informed opinion on the subject, you aren't a zealot. If you do not have an informed opinion but are lambasting Windows anyway just for the heck of it, only then would you be a zealot.

In reply to:

Linux is good for some things, rather awful (in my opinion) for others.


Yeah, I'd use Linux (or MacOS X) for desktop and FreeBSD for servers :P

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: guice
Posted on: 2005-06-16 13:37:00

MS has the desktop platform, with Apple coming in from behind rather fast.

Linux/Unix has the server platform, always had and probably always will. OSX has been tested for server quality, but found it's GUI has hindered it so much, that it's quality is hear 2 times worse than a standard BSD system. Makes you wonder how Windows would be if they didn't have that giant GUI to support, too....

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Iri
Posted on: 2005-06-16 13:41:00

NT has its roots in VMS. You remember VMS, no?

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: guice
Posted on: 2005-06-16 13:50:00

In reply to:

. think Microsoft Bob, or the infamous "My Computer" spectacle...


Or Apple, where MS originally got the desktop idea from. Don't forget Windows 3.11, an "MS original" if I recall.

In reply to:

The thing is that I've had an Internet-facing Win2K box going for four years straight now and no-one has hacked it yet.


You missed a contest that MS did back in 2000(ish) in realiation to a PPC Linux contest. It pretty much went like this:

A company (forget the name) created a PPC Linux box out of a Mac to show the world it's security. It placed the box on the public network and released the root password for the world to see. The contest was scheduled to go for a month or indefinate. The goal was to hack the box (it was a pretty supped up box, too). The first one to hack it wins the box! But they must guarentee that they release what they did to hack the box.

MS caught wind of this aprox a week or two into the contest and decided to run one themselves. MS wanted to prove to the world their Win2k system is as stable and as secure as Linux. They placed a box, on the open internet, locked down for the world to hack. As I recall they did not release any sys admin password for the box. And I'm sure they've locked down the personal ports.

The result? After three months, the PPC box is finally hacked by an FTP File upload hack.

Windows? Lets just say once the world herd of their contest, that box was *never* accessable. I'm dead serious. For two weeks, the only time I was ever able to get to the box myself is laaaaaate at night at like 3-4am, and even then it was very very slow.

The result of that contest has provided MS with a more stable box. But they only let it run for a couple weeks before closing their contest. There was never a winner in MS's contest.

It's a true story, and if you try to search some archives, you might be able to locate some information on it. It was a while ago and I do love telling the story. ;)


In the end, for us, just as Jeff said, MS has one of the worst track records in security, but yet people apperently still trusts them. /shrug
An Linux box can be properly secured with your standard backyard hacker. A Windows box requires a certified professional to properly secure it? Dunno about you, but I'll just stick to Linux servers and Windows desktops (I'd use MacOSX, but I do gaming and Mac still a bit pricey for the good stuff. :( ). /shrug

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Iri
Posted on: 2005-06-16 14:03:00

In reply to:

Or Apple, where MS originally got the desktop idea from.


Do be thorough: Apple copied the GUI idea from Xerox.

In reply to:



<snip>

It's a true story, and if you try to search some archives, you might be able to locate some information on it. It was a while ago and I do love telling the story. ;)


Yeah, I remember contests like that :)

Wasn't it even before Win2K was released? MS wanted to flaunt the security of their flagship... that went over well, so's it did...


In reply to:

In the end, for us, just as Jeff said, MS has one of the worst track records in security, but yet people apperently still trusts them. /shrug


The problem, IMHO, is Microsoft's decisions in default config of Windows. Some of the stuff they've pulled are downright assinine.

BTW, people don't "trust" Windows; they just don't think they have a choice.

In reply to:

An Linux box can be properly secured with your standard backyard hacker.


Nah. You still need to be a good hacker to properly secure a Linux box.

In reply to:

A Windows box requires a certified professional to properly secure it?


On the contrary: do not let an MCSE anywhere near a Windows box if you want it secure. And I'm only half-joking about that.

In reply to:

Dunno about you, but I'll just stick to Linux servers and Windows desktops (I'd use MacOSX, but I do gaming and Mac still a bit pricey for the good stuff. :( ). /shrug


You know Xbox360? It's running a remote cousin of Win2K kernel, on PPC. You can plug it to your monitor and use a keyboard and a mouse in it. That sounds like a pretty good setup for a gaming box. It's really tempting to ditch computer-gaming altogether and use Xbox360 for that, if they manage to make an MMORPG run nicely on a console. If you wanted to use your computer for both gaming and as a graphics workstation, you've always had to make compromises unless you wanted to pay big bucks. If you can ditch gaming it gets a lot easier, and MacOS X sounds real nice for that kind of stuff.


Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: guice
Posted on: 2005-06-16 14:12:00

In reply to:

Wasn't it even before Win2K was released? MS wanted to flaunt the security of their flagship... that went over well, so's it did...


Yeah, I found some articals and oops, I was slightly off on my facts:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/08/05/linuxppc_mounts_hack_challenge_as/

LinuxPPC actually retaliated with the contest after MS released a Windows 2k hack contest.

And I know somebody won...odly Slashdot reported it was closed early:
http://slashdot.org/articles/99/08/12/2153243.shtml



In reply to:

You know Xbox360? It's running a remote cousin of Win2K kernel, on PPC. You can plug it to your monitor and use a keyboard and a mouse in it. That sounds like a pretty good setup for a gaming box. It's really tempting to ditch computer-gaming altogether and use Xbox360 for that, if they manage to make an MMORPG run nicely on a console. If you wanted to use your computer for both gaming and as a graphics workstation, you've always had to make compromises unless you wanted to pay big bucks. If you can ditch gaming it gets a lot easier, and MacOS X sounds real nice for that kind of stuff.


Did you know that the Xbox360 was demoed on G5s? ;)
http://www6.tomshardware.com/column/20050608/Edited by guice on 06/16/05 02:18 PM (server time).

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: Iri
Posted on: 2005-06-16 14:17:00

Yeah. I think MS even used IIS 5 with that box. IIS 5 was an abomination..

Re: A .net version of DreamHost?

Posted by: kchrist
Posted on: 2005-06-16 14:39:00

Windows? Lets just say once the world herd of their contest, that box was *never* accessable.

Keep in mind that you can DoS anything. The fact that it was inaccessible doesn't reflect on its security, or lack thereof.


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