PostgreSQL rant

I suppose this another "on-topic off-topic" message, since it does have to do with Dreamhost and web stuff but doesn't fit into any of the other forums.

I know this has been discussed before, but I just have to make the plea again:

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAASE start offering PostgreSQL as well as MySQL! PLEEEEEEEEAAAAAAASE!!!

Do I sound desperate enough yet? :-)

My part-time day job involves working on a PostgreSQL database for an art gallery and we have been through THREE web hosts in the time I've been here, all of whom have sucked as to varying extents. Host 1's versions of PHP and PostgreSQL were way out of date -- to the point where I couldn't use any PHP scripts I found online -- and getting tech support of any kind was like pulling teeth. Host 2 claimed they supported PostreSQL while courting the gallery and then once we'd signed up said oops, sorry, we actually only support MySQL. Host 3 was great for a month and then over the span of a few weeks, first their support forums went down, then their trouble ticket system, then their account control panel, then support e-mail started bouncing, then our site went down a week ago and has stayed down since, and now THEIR site is down.

I want -- no, NEED -- to transfer this site to host that doesn't suck. That would be you. But it needs PostgreSQL. And no, I am not going to put it on a dedicated server when the entire database is under 1 Mb in size and the whole site even with all artwork included is under 50 Mb, and the gallery has very little money left in the budget for this project.

PostgreSQL is undeniably better than MySQL. It is more stable, more powerful, has more features, and just generally kicks MySQL's sorry ass. I went looking for tutorials on how to convert from PostgreSQL to MySQL when host 2 shafted us, and the universal reply I got was "Why would you WANT to?" and tutorials on how to go the other way round.

I know someone at Dreamhost must appreciate the innate goodness of PostgreSQL. Jeff! You've said good things about it. So someone, please, please, PLEASE start offering PostgreSQL at Dreamhost! If you do, I will transfer the gallery site to you immediately, if not sooner.

Unless, of course, it takes long enough to happen that we've had to sign a new contract with some new host who will undoubtedly shaft us in some new and different way from the other three...

*sigh*


Lynna

Business: http://www.spidersilk.net
Personal: http://www.wildideas.net

Hi Lynna -

> I know someone at Dreamhost must appreciate the innate
> goodness of PostgreSQL. Jeff! You've said good things
> about it. So someone, please, please, PLEASE start offering
> PostgreSQL at Dreamhost!

While I'm not one to say bad things about MySQL (which I think is very good for most applications), I do indeed appreciate PostgreSQL. Most of my own web applications are written to work in both.

Unfortunately, as incredibly influential as I am at DreamHost (heh), I can't put up much of a fight against market forces. Basically, there just hasn't been enough demand for PostgreSQL for us to make it a supported offering at this point.

That's the main problem. Installing PostgreSQL itself is pretty simple (I have a copy on my laptop). The problem is that we'd have to develop the necessary hooks into our web panel, customer account management tools, etc. so that we and our customers can set up and configure databases.

That alone isn't too bad, as it'd pretty much be a one-time thing. The problem comes with having to administer the database application itself - while we're intimately familiar with the various tricks/techniques for keeping MySQL in line. We haven't got nearly as much experience with PostgreSQL, however, so there would be a learning curve involved.

We'd also have to monitor the PostgreSQL services to ensure that they remain up and responsive. This too would require a bit of coding, but more importantly it brings with it much more potential for Admin pagers to go off at any given moment. I'd prefer not to make Will any grumpier than he already is.

Again, this is all something that can be done, but generally speaking for such a "mission critical" feature - ie. something far more important to most sites than free counters or guestbooks - we prefer not to offer it unless we can be absolutely, positively sure we can A) support it with a decent level of quality and B) make it worth the time/effort spent on the part of our Admins.

Basically, if we're going to do it, we'd prefer to do it well. We don't want to be anything like those other web hosts you referred to.

Unfortunately, at this point we get more requests for InnoDB support in MySQL than we do PostgreSQL - so even if demand went up a bit that will probably come first. :|

- Jeff @ DreamHost
- DH Discussion Forum Admin

Please add me to the list of users who would like to see innoDB support. Anytime soon?

As soon as individual InnoDB tables are kept in individual files, we'll support it. In theory that's when MySQL 4.1 is released. We'll need a little time to test and whatnot, but that's what's really holding things up at this point.


nate.

You could always vote for PostgreSQL in the suggestions area. :)

It must be a chicken and egg things--most web hosts only have MySQL, so most people write for MySQL, so customers only demand MySQL...

I can definitely see the advantage of using a more full-featured database (foreign keys, sub-selects, stored procedures, triggers..) I hope I'm not learning bad habits by having to code around these limitations.

Mysql 4.1 has been out for a while now. Any word on when it will be applied?

> Mysql 4.1 has been out for a while now. Any word on when it will be
> applied?

We have no official timeframe for this (as a general rule, if we ever have an official timeframe on supporting anything, we announce it), but MySQL v4.1 is a natural progression of software that we already support and we'll definitely be supporting it.

We've already rolled it out on a few dedicated servers upon request, and will only support it on our shared hosting servers once we are pretty confident that A) it won't cause people too much trouble, and B) it's properly integrated into our panel, backup system, and C) our Admin folks have enough time to perform the upgrade.

- Jeff @ DreamHost
- DH Discussion Forum Admin

Add me to the list wanting innodb. This is a huge reason why we have to host any of our sites with another company.

You have no idea how my live would be simplified if Dreamhost provided innodb tables. <guilt>Other hosts not nearly as awesome as Dreamhost seem to be able to pull this off </guilt>

Is there _any_ timeline for this?

Jeff

We've now set up MySQL 4.1 on all of our shared database servers. We're currently working with InnoDB tables internally and are looking into offering it to customers. We have spent a considerable amount of time performance tuning our existing MySQL setup and throwing InnoDB into the mix could be disruptive if it's not handled carefully.

- Dallas
- DreamHost Head Honcho/Founder

So what about Postgres? Is it on the to-do list at all?

I've voted for it on the suggestions page, if that helps!!!

regards,

Matt

> So what about Postgres? Is it on the to-do list at all?

Right now? No. Supporting a 2nd database engine is a pretty big task, and something that would require a lot of demand before we'd consider it (more than, say, supporting a new feature that doesn't already have an existing equivalent). There are no plans going forward to support PostgreSQL at this time.

That doesn't mean that can't change, of course - it really depends on customer demand. We weigh demand against the ease of supporting the feature, and make our decisions from there.

In other words, don't necessarily remove your vote for PostgreSQL support because you think we'll never support it - because if everyone does that, we probably won't. Just vote for what you want and we'll take it from there. :>

- Jeff @ DreamHost
- DH Discussion Forum Admin

Oh well - my vote stays, but I won't hold my breath then. :-)

Shame you can't see how many votes the suggestions have... No, I don't think that's worth a vote on its own!

I have to say support around here is vastly better than other hosts I've used. It's quite a novelty getting questions answered at the first attempt!

regards,

Matt