Questions about the fax thing...

Hello,
yesterday I signed up for a standard hosting service with dreamhost and i received an email telling me absurd things like making an imprint of my creditcard and send it to dreamhost by fax. I don't have a fax and I don't have a clue where to get one or better I simply don't fell/want to do this.
What should i do?should i tell someone that I'm not gonna send this fax? Can i register the domain I was going to register with dreamhost with another company or you booked/reserved it ?

Thanks and sorry for my bad english.

Edited by gasparov on 11/02/06 07:50 AM (server time).

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i received an email telling me absurd things like making an imprint of my creditcard and send it to dreamhost by fax.

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I think you will find this is standard DreamHost procedure for applications where they think there is a potential for fraud.

I recall reading on the DreamHost blog that the level of fraudulent applications was around 20%, so I can understand them doing all they can to reduce this.

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What should i do?should i tell someone that I'm not gonna send this fax?

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You could try this, but I am afraid it might simply result in your application being rejected.

Surely you can access a fax machine somewhere? Here in Australia, local post offices provide a fax service for those without access to a fax machine, perhaps something similar exists in your country.

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I was going to register with dreamhost with another company or you booked/reserved it ?

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I don't think the domain registration is submitted until your application is approved, so if you decide to cancel your application and purchase hosting elsewhere you should still be able to obtain the domain you wanted.

Mark

I can understand Dreamhost reasons but DreamHost should also understand that there are people on wheelchairs that can't move around freely and going to a post office means asking somebody to take you there.My guess is that they didn't think about it.
I could also register to a mail2fax gateway but I'd rather prefer not for the above reason.
Thank you for you fast answer....

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DreamHost should also understand that there are people on wheelchairs that can't move around freely and going to a post office means asking somebody to take you there.

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Absolutely, and I understand your position perfectly. It is just a pity that we live in a world where fraud is so prevalent that it makes these kind of measures necessary.

It might be worth writing to DreamHost detailing your reasons for not being able to supply the fax they requested. There is no guarantee that they will make an exception, but I guess it is worth a try.

The best place to submit a request is via the Support -> Contact Support section of the admin panel. Even though your application has not yet been approved, you should still be able to log into the panel using the email address and password you selected during the sign up process.

If not, try the contact form below;

http://www.dreamhost.com/contact.cgi

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Thank you for you fast answer....

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No problem, I am glad to help where I can.

Good luck.

Mark

I agree with this person - requiring a crayon impression of a credit card is unacceptable.

What we are saying is this: "Please trust us with your credit card, even though we have no means to validate its authenticity we have the ability to keep it safely stored so it is not mis-used." Sure, I believe you.

I was hoping to evaluate DreamHost as a hosting provider for 15 accounts of mine that are hosted at an ISP that is having significant up-time problems. Unfortunately telling these accounts that the "perfect technology provider" for their web services can't manage their own e-commerce fraud exposure is a little backwards. "Certainly, we can host your e-commerce solutions but we can't securely manage one for ourselves!"

And to boot, even though I thought I would give it a chance - the fax number they gave me was out of order!!

Let's see, I've given these folks my credit card number over the web, have NO WAY to talk to anyone on the phone, AND don't get a reply to an email I've sent on their contact page... This sounds more like a phishing site than a secure hosting provider.

No biggie. I heard the guy who made the boarding pass script also has a credit card fax page:

Christopher Soghoian's credit card fax page

Just enter the card number, etc., and fax number to send to. :-)





tor.eff.org

404

about the fax : a picture of your CC, even taken by your cellphone, should be enouth i think.

Send it by mail (or host it somewhere and put a link) and simply explain that you don't have a fax.

> 404

Unbelievable, they took that one down already too.



tor.eff.org

Oh...
Does this is for the "Crazy Domain Insane!" plan???
I'm from Argentina, and it's difficult for me too to send a fax...

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Does this is for the "Crazy Domain Insane!" plan???

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The fax is not required for all applications, but the exact criteria that DreamHost use to decide which applications require the fax is unknown.

I would imagine applications from countries that have had a high level of fraud in the past (Nigeria?) would be more likely to require the fax.

Mark

Hello,
Yesterday I've signed up too (using a coupon) and I had this request AFTER having paid with my debit card.

Apart from the fact that I live in Europe and the fax is going to cost me a lot to the USA.... (and I don't even have a fax in my home).

My debit card is a "cheap" type, the number engravings are so low and thin it's impossible to get an imprint out of it.I repeat;impossible.And there's not the cardholder name printed or engraved on the surface.

I've emailed dreamhost billing asking if a photocopy is enough in this case, I really can't do more.

And if it's not enough, I asked for a refund and I'll host elsewhere.

However my humble opinion is that dreamhost should inform the users about the necessity of the imprint and fax BEFORE! paying, so that people who can't do it host elsewhere or pay by bank wire.

Regards
Mat

Edited by matcgo on 11/03/06 01:45 AM (server time).

Sorry for bumping this post, just to update you on the situation.

I asked five days ago for a refund, still waiting.

I advise new members not to even try to signup IF they don't have a credit/debit card suitable for "imprinting" and the ability to send a fax, dreamhost won't make exceptions and you would just loose time waiting for a refund.

Just hope to get the damn refund ASAP, lost a lot of time.

Regards

Edited by matcgo on 11/09/06 01:38 AM (server time).

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope things get worked out to your satisfaction soon.

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I advise new members not to even try to signup IF they don't have a credit/debit card suitable for "imprinting" and the ability to send a fax, dreamhost won't make exceptions and you would just loose time waiting for a refund.

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I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to have decided to host your project(s) at Dreamhost, and invested time and effort toward that end, only to be unable to "seal the deal" at the end of the day. I think your experience is very unfortunate, and I'm sorry to hear things could not be worked out.

That said, I also find it a bit silly that you should have to wait for a "refund" at all. It seems to me that if they needed the "imprint" to "charge your account", having not received the imprint they should not have initiated any charge at all until they *had* received it.

For Dreamhost to maintain that an "imprint is needed to process your account" and "since you can't send the imprint, we can't service you", but then have to refund money for which they already processed a charge seems to me to be a needlessly convoluted way of doing things.

Maybe they never actually processed the charge on the account, waiting for the imprint, in which case you would still have your money in the account and no refund would be needed (or would that be too simple a way for the situation to be handled?).

--rlparker

In reply to:

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I advise new members not to even try to signup IF they don't have a credit/debit card suitable for "imprinting" and the ability to send a fax

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Gee, I am really sorry to hear things didn't work out for you. I imagine it has been a frustrating experience.

I really think the 'brains trust' at DreamHost needs to sit down and come up with a better scheme to prevent CC fraud. I have no idea what that might be, but it is obvious that the current scheme is making things difficult for a lot of potential customers.

Mark

I think part of the reason faxing is a good deterrent is because of the time it takes to do it. It's easier for a spammer & his stolen credit card to just move onto the next host that isn't as thorough, and will give him an instant activation without verification.

oh man, I just went through this today. I had no idea about the faxing thing, some notice might have nice or I might have waited until next week to sign up instead of at 2.30pm this afternoon leaving me with 90mins to get to the post office to send a fax. (its friday, would have had to wait until monday otherwise). *frown*

I used a CC and a promo code and got the "fax us" email. I dont have a fax. I would think most regular folk wouldnt. I ended up going up to the post office and it cost me about $10 to fax the form. And that was after we got a "this number does not work" message, and tried again using the alternate country code for the US. (0011 instead of 0015 I think it was). Thank heavens for friendly post office staff. It eventually went through. Or I am assuming it did, as I got a "transmission ok" print out from them.

Quite annoying though to have to do that after going to all the trouble of deciding to sign up, finding out I cant use paypal (because of the promo code) going through the process of withdrawing the money I would have used from paypal to my bank account (not dreamhost's problem I know, but still...) and then several days later paying by CC only to find I have to fax as well! crikies! Next thing you know they will want a DNA sample. ;p

I hope the service lives up to its rep after all this hassle.

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I dont have a fax. I would think most regular folk wouldnt.

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That's how I felt... until about the 4th time I had to go somewhere to fax something, so I broke down and bought one.

I still rarely fax anything, but the convenience is worth it--especially considering that you can get them pretty cheap on sale.

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That's how I felt... until about the 4th time I had to go somewhere to fax something, so I broke down and bought one.

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Another option would be to use an old Fax/Modem if you still have one lying around. I seem to have accumulated a cupboard full of them over the years. :)

Mark

You know, most laptops have one of those "phone thingies" that you can use to "fax".

(I'm playing stupid here) But almost every laptop will have a fax capable modem.

So, scan your document (a scanner's a whole 'nother problem) and put it on your usb memory stick and find anyone's laptop. Just don't try it through Vonage/VOIP without a lot of configuration.

Wow, that isn't good... there are some programs that claim to provide an "email to fax" service, but I never used them...

Last time a webhoster asked me that, I didn't send it, so DreamHost may be loosing some clients that way.

Why not setting a secure system where people could upload a scanned image, or a photo? Fax is from another age! Please innovate. You are a web company, use the web!

DreamHost, please think about it!!

DreamHost $97 discount code: 97promo «« Check other codes on DreamHost97.com
All money from 90promo was given to Santa's Helpers Charity

In reply to:

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Why not setting a secure system where people could upload a scanned image, or a photo?

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Michael addressed this somewhere and stated that nothing seems to cut back on fraud like faxes.

I guess people will go through the trouble to doctor an image and upload it, but won't go the extra mile to fax it. Also easier to spoof an IP than a phone number.

I've heard they're faster at processing your order if you fax them brownies at the same time.

You can fax from your local post office, but it is sometimes expensive. To an international number, if that is the case, even worst...

Of course they have their reasons, and they are strong ones, but many honest people won't send the fax, angry because they don't trust them. That was why I never sent the fax to that other webhoster many years ago... that never happened before, and I was really upset.

Woooh, I'm glad I'm already in :)

DreamHost $97 discount code: 97promo «« Check other codes on DreamHost97.com
All money from 90promo was given to Santa's Helpers Charity

yeah, having to go over to my friends house to fax was a pain.
also, I did it thursday nite, and apparently its going to take till monday or tuesday for my account to get activated, even though they took the money out of my account on friday. I'm not sure if I'm complaining, but I'm just saying, my last webhost sent me straight to the panel login after hitting submit on the credit card form. 2 minutes later i got an email with the password for to login with. I still have the email, and the kicker is, I signed up at about 4am on a SUNDAY.
Instead of this quick process, I have to get in my car, drive to a fax machine, fax "a rubbing" of my credit card and then wait 4 days.
Even if DreamHost deems this fax back thing necessary it shouldn't further frustrate their customers by making the process even more drawn out.

four days?! that is far too long. I faxed mine off yesterday avo (thursday night US time) and was hoping to have it sorted in the ONE working day it says in the control panel that it will take to be approved. I have to cancel my other hosting, and move my site over before the 14th. If its going to take four days that's several days my site will probably be down now because it will take a day or two on top of this for the domains to catch up.

This isn't encouraging, especially when you are a new member who is already having nerves about changing hosts. Instead of a simple click and it's set up ready to upload, its taken so much effort just to get an account!

Heres the email:

"Usually takes 24 to 48 hours but today was a holiday and the new
accounts
department is not open on the weekend. If you do not receive an update
on
your accounts status by Tuesday evening. Please let us know."

They should just have a script for this, instead of coming up with an entirely new department for it.

OK. I too have been stung by this.
[ START_RANT ]
Last Thursday, I signed up for my second account. I used a different CC than the one I've used on my first account, so shame on me. As such, I've been sucked into the vortex of the CC fraud issue. What I'm having the big issue with is the absolute lack of service to get past this. I sent the fax that they asked for on Friday. It took several hours to go through because they let the fax machine run out of paper. I have the confirmation that the fax made it, but they don't have it. I've emailed them several times to try to find out if this is being processed, but I keep getting emails that suggest I need to "do it all over again". So here we are, 101 hours later, and they still haven't even started to create the account because they don't have my fax! This is not the kind of service that I've received from DH in the past, so I have to keep in mind this MUST be a transition thing... but what's up with 5 days and NOTHING to show for it? I even attempted to email the document to Sales, but all attachments are summarily discarded, regardless of type. The return message suggests posting the attachment to a web server and sending the link!!! Just what I need, my CC imprint open to the web! Brilliant!
[ END_RANT ]

It would seem that they are doing this to prevent 20% of the people from ripping them off, but the other 80% may not be getting service. Someone needs to wake up and look at the bottom line. There are too many hosting services out there for anyone to provide this lack of service and expect their customer to endure it. DH is a hosting service. When the CC fraud is detected, shut down the service associated with the purchase. Yeah, it's a pain, but the customers who are legit (from the 80%) will still get the same great service they've had in the past.

Let's not forget that the CC companies are involved in this too. If they are really the ones that are pushing back and causing this to be a bigger headache, then I would ask "How did all of these CC numbers (20% of the applying customers) that are frauds get out?" Whether they are stolen or created, how are that many numbers able to pass the initial CC Authorization process?

Sorry for the rant, but I'm looking for answers and can't find them. DH support is nearly ignoring me. No information AT ALL!!! (Please retry your fax....)

Sorry, but one more thing. I just called my CC company and asked them if they are the ones requiring the imprint. From the first person up through the shift supervisor, no one has heard of this requirement. (This is one of the MAJOR CC companies). I'm starting to be suspicious of this requirement.

There is no doubt that the whole "fax a credit card imprint" is inconvenient; you'll get no argument from me on that!

From your post though, I could not help but notice:

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Last Thursday, I signed up for my second account. I used a different CC than the one I've used on my first account, so shame on me. As such, I've been sucked into the vortex of the CC fraud issue.

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I'm a bit confused reading that, given that the Dreamhost Term of Service (TOS), paragraph 8 under "Material Products" states:

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The Customer agrees to hold only one (1) active web hosting service plan at any given time with DreamHost Webhosting. Signing up for multiple plans is grounds for termination of all additional plans without warning.

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Is this "second" account replacing a "first account" that is no longer active/in force?

--rlparker

Actually Dreamhost can get in trouble and even get their credit card rights REVOKED if they have too many chargebacks. My guess is that this was threatened which convinced DH to implement this policy. Not being able to take cards would be a significant hit.

Wholly

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It would seem that they are doing this to prevent 20% of the people from ripping them off .... When the CC fraud is detected, shut down the service associated with the purchase.

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That's how irresponsible people that want to lose their merchant accounts do things.

You know how fraud is detected after the fact? When the rightful owner of the credit card files a chargeback... not good for merchant accounts.

That might work for a host that gets 2 sign-ups per year, but when you do the volume Dreamhost does, a tiny percentage of chargebacks is still A LOT of chargebacks.

That's also an open invitation to spammers that only need the account for an hour or so anyway. The web hosting business is a fraud magnet, so I think DH's process is certainly reasonable.

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Sorry, but one more thing. I just called my CC company and asked them if they are the ones requiring the imprint. From the first person up through the shift supervisor, no one has heard of this requirement. (This is one of the MAJOR CC companies). I'm starting to be suspicious of this requirement.

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They're not the ones selling you hosting, so it's Dreamhost's requirements that matter here. Now, if you mean they never heard of any merchants doing that in general, then they're not too bright.

I don't see why you called anyway. Unless this is the first time you've used a credit card, I'd think you would have noticed if other merchants weren't asking for it.

Just like how some ask for the security codes, but some don't. Some stores ask to see ID, some don't. Some places will only ship to your billing address, while others will drop-ship to your place of work. The list goes on...

Specifically, I am trying to get another person's company up an running with a hosted site. I was not aware of paragraph 8, so my apologies for seeming to be a hog... not my intent at all. But with the great service that I've had here, I want to bring on more biz for DH. It was improper of me to state that is was my account, but since I'm doing all of the legwork, it feels like mine.

So, I guess we're saying that Amazon and Borders don't have this problem? What about the hundreds of other hosts out there? My question is, "Why is DH being thrashed with fraud accounts?" Is this just the first in a wave of companies that are being bent over from CC companies over fraud? Whether it's in actual numbers or in a ratio of transactions, there have to be hundreds of companies that are facing this issue, yet this is the first time that I've found this level of requirement. I agree that not being able to accept CCs would be the death rattle of any online company, but are they really any better off having this level of "confirmation", which is really not all that difficult to forge? To me, this is at best a temporary fix. The real problem is in the hands of the CC companies. Discover has started a program where you can get temporary card numbers, so your real account number is not used anywhere online. (Crap, there I go ranting again! Sorry for that.)

As for calling the CC company, there were 2 reasons:
1. If they were the ones generating this requirement, then I could attempt to use a different card, without all of the restrictions. Realize, I'm still under a deadline.

2. I wanted to make sure this wasn't something specific to my account. (Was MY number stolen and used somewhere?) From some of the other posts, this is a selective process and not being applied to all cards.

> this is the first time that I've found this

Then maybe it's another of those things that makes DreamHost uniquely DreamHost.

And as Honcho Michael said, it's just what works.

They've been talking about it for a while:

http://blog.dreamhost.com/2005/08/23/its-a-fraud-fraud-fraud-fraud-world/

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We could do something like require a faxed rubbing of the actual credit card for every new sign up, but what a hassle for the 80% of people who aren’t fraud! We could manually review each account for tell-tale signs of fraud, but that would mean longer waits for new account set ups, not to mention more work for us!

That’s where FRAUDINATOR comes in!

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They didn't use CSC codes.

http://blog.dreamhost.com/2005/09/08/why-we-dont-use-csc-codes/

They did use CSC codes.

http://blog.dreamhost.com/2006/04/06/why-we-do-use-csc-codes/

Apparently none of it, including Fraudinator, worked well enough, so they opted for the pain and agony of fax rubbings. It's just what works. :-)

I wish they collected them in color, though, because one day it could make a great art display.



You are welcome to a refund.-Michael;Comparing 'DH of today' with 'DH of old' does not serve much purpose.-Dallas

To one and all:

I apologize for being so crabby about this. I get this way every time I'm involved with a perfectly good company that has to jump through flaming hoops just to keep ahead of the script kiddies and other vermin that would rather cause corruption than get a real date, not to mention truly work for a day.

I've clipped the rest of the post that I had ready to go, since we've all heard it and repeating it just is a waste of bandwidth. Take care all and I hope/pray the CC companies are looking into creative ways to overcome this even-increasing epidemic.

I think this thread needs to have an ending. It's something that we'd all like to know....


Have you succeeded in paying for hosting service?

Wholly

Bookstores aren't highly targeted businesses for fraud. Web hosting is, as I already stated. Just like most big computer/electronics stores will only ship to a billing address.

There are thousands of hosts and Dreamhost is one of the biggest in the world. That makes their odds of getting hit pretty good... over and over and over again.

There are a lot of hosts out there that only take Paypal or third party processors... and not all of them are that way by choice.

Thanks for asking, but sadly, not yet. I have re-sent the fax again last night, so I'm hoping to hear something today.

> I think this thread needs to have an ending.

à contraire. Maybe... This is the thread that never ends. It goes on and on, my friend...

More Credit Card Pencil or Crayon Rubbers:

http://www.mackite.com/credit.htm

http://www.seagullintl.com/Content/28.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff96296.htm Pizza Hut and Domino's!



You are welcome to a refund.-Michael;Comparing 'DH of today' with 'DH of old' does not serve much purpose.-Dallas

We can always hope...

Wholly

I think Seiler has (his? her?) finger on it... Web hosting gets a lot of fraudsters.

(Unfortunately, it's not true that booksellers aren't targeted as much... while B&N and Amazon have their own systems, the scam a few years back hitting smaller booksellers was for someone to request a huge order of Bibles or textbooks, often medical, shipped overseas where they can be resold. The credit card used turns out to be phony.)

As Anonymous2 posted, there's probably going to be some growth in this kind of request, when the system flags a person, or they're in a country with high fraud levels.

Today with some of these RFID chip cards around, someone can just scan someone's purse and rip the credit card number and info right off. A lot more companies will probably demand proof that you have the card due to that.

__
If I've been helpful, please check out my discount codes for Dreamhost: with BRUCELEE, you get the maximum discount, less $1 for moi. Or get the maximum discount with WAKEUPTOMONEY.

I was looking into moving my sites to dreamhost. After reading through this thread, I might not. It's not that I don't understand the problem, it's that I don't like the solution.

Making you fax in a "rub" seems like a very unprofessional answer to a problem. There has to be a better way.

The thing that really irks me is that they don't tell you until AFTER you give them card info, they run the charge through and take your money, then tell you there are additional requirements after the fact.

To me, that is a severe violation of the trust relationship you should have with a customer. If there is going to be an additional requirement, be honest and up front about it. Explain why. Legitimate customers would understand.

This kind of behavior is why some people are still skeptical about shopping on the Internet. To me, this is a "OK we got your money, now bend over and jump through our hoops".

Reputation factor just dropped 20 points here after I read how they decided to do business.

If you bother reading this entire thread, you've already spent too much time thinking about this.

How many other hosting companies would let a conversation that is this honestly critical of a policy? This honesty and ability to communicate even between users is worth quite a bit. It would be easy to just shut down these forums and let people stew and *NOT* make this kind of information available - or worse - available on another non-trustworthy site.

I agree it seems kind of "strange". I agree that after the fact does seem kind of "strange". But I also agree that changing the way a business works especially when they deal with a rather large set of customers is a difficult task.

Remember not everyone has to go through that process. Only people that are flagged for some reason.

Many of us are quite pleased and even people that have gone through the headache of "rubbing" the card.

There are many other hosting companies that will gladly take your money right now. Will you find something "strange" there too? Undoubtedly. Will you find a group of users as strange and generally loyal as us - maybe, but I doubt it.

If you join us - welcome! If you don't - good luck.



Wholly

You could have sent a fax in a lot less time than it took you to whine out that post.

Be up front about it? Name one business that tells criminals up front everything that they're going to check.

You must really hate that you can't break more laws because of those dishonest police forces that use unmarked cars and plain-clothes cops! How unprofessional of them, not telling people they're cops until AFTER they break the law.

The ones that are on the move with stolen credit card numbers will never even bother to stop and read this thread. But when it comes time to prove they own the card they just used... time to move on.

Maybe it's not as convenient as waiting around for a charge-back. It's also not as stupid.

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It's not that I don't understand the problem, it's that I don't like the solution....There has to be a better way.

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I read through your post several times to make sure I didn't miss something obvious, but for the life of me I can't seem to find in your post any description or discussion of a what you feel a "better way" to selectively verify card not present sales might be. That said, I don't see why the subject is even of interest to you unless you are afraid that you might be asked to verify the existence of your card in such a manner (and it seems to me from your post that you have *not* been asked to do so)

As wholly pointed out, there is no reason to assume that you will be asked to provide a fax rubbing (is there?). From the relatively few discussions that arise over this issue (Dreamhost currently hosts over 360,000 domains), it's a pretty safe bet that *most* are never asked to provide such a "rubbing."

Does this mean that there is something "wrong" with the charge cards or reputations of those who are asked? I have no way of knowing for sure, but would suspect that the answer is, "not necessarily".

The *fact* is that Dreamhost has a system by which *certain transactions* are submitted to extra security checks and closer scrutiny. Dreamhost has never described what metrics are in place to determine what triggers the request for a charge card rubbing; I would not *expect* them to do so, as that would mitigate the effectiveness of the process as a fraud prevention tool. Until, or unless, you have been asked to submit to this process, objecting to the fact that you *might* be asked for the extra verification is a bit disingenuous.

The choice of types of payments a company accepts is that company's to make; customers remain free to make payment in a manner the company accepts or not. If you feel that the balance between "card not present" charge sales, the risk of charge-backs to the vendor, and the protection of the consumer is "skewed" in the seller's favor, use a different payment method; Dreamhost still accepts "plain old checks", and will activate your account when the check has cleared - seems to me to be the perfect solution for one who is not willing to trust the "reputation factor" of the way a company handles charge sales.

Try going into your local store of a major national retailer and trying to charge something without having your card present, or allowing a swipe or imprint of the card, and see how far you get arguing, "Why do you need my card, or my signature, when you have my card number, its expiration date, and my customer code?" "What's that you say? I can pay with cash, or check (with restrictions) if I don't/can't/won't produce my charge card?"

I'm sensitive to those who found out after their accounts were charged about the "additional requirement", and I've posted my support for their concerns in this thread (and others). You, on the other hand, have no standing to complain as you have not been impacted in the least. If you want to sign up, find a way to pay that suits *your* way of doing business, or don't sign up.

There are several companies whose policies I find onerous, and I don't do business with them. There are others whose policies I'm less than thrilled with, but tolerate because of the quality of goods, service, or value they provide. This is how it should be. In a market such as the market for web hosting, where no monopolies are at play, the market manages to sort this stuff out for itself. Right now, the market is speaking pretty forcefully - Dreamhost is growing by leaps and bounds, warts and all.

But hey, it's your choice to make, and you should certainly make the choice that makes you happy. Good Luck!

--rlparker

I just created a new post as it looks like my cc will take 5 days to clear. If I had known I would have signed up else where and that is the bottom line. Im not saying DH doenst have good support, I have no idea because Im not authorized yet!

My site is losing business because I expected a CC payment online to be processed through maximum 48 hours.

Sure keep the fax and the crayon rubbings, but don' t hide it. If that's the way they want to verify ppl Im sure they wouldn't have a problem with it IF THEY WERE TOLD BEFORE SIGNING UP!!! If you knew your local supermarket was going to make you go home and fax your details in before you could receive your groceries I'd think many ppl will opt to pay via cash or some other faster method.
So what DH really needs to do is WARN PPL!! Warn that this could take a VERY long time and it might even take 2 faxes to verify and they'd curb on both unhappy customers-to-be (honestly Im not going to even ask for a refund if this is how long it takes to be authorized) and fraud.

Mesh -

You're spamming in your frustration. This goes over VERY poorly on these forums.

If you had READ the forums before signing up you would have known about all of these possible issues.

The information is not hidden.


Wholly

I agree with you, and just read your other post. That is a rough situation you are in, and I understand how frustrating it is.

I've been lucky, in that I always leave a site with it's existing hosting until after I am all setup with the new host, have already uploaded/tested the site, etc. before I change DNS, so I avoid the issues you are having with the downtime.

That said, I don't think anything you are saying is unreasonable; I *think* the difficulty lies in DH not wanting/needing the fax rubbing in every instance, and are therefor hesitant to make a general warning (of course, I could be way off as I have no special knowlege - I'm just a customer here like everyone else)

Certainly, everybody will be better off if they tune this system up so that it works better.

I'm sorry for the trouble you have had, and truly hope that once this is worked out things work well for you.

--rlparker

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IF THEY WERE TOLD BEFORE SIGNING UP!!!

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Here is a quote from a post in this thread. (You should try reading threads before posting in them.):

"Be up front about it? Name one business that tells criminals up front everything that they're going to check. "

Make sense? It would be incredibly stupid of them to reveal anything that has to do with fraud checking. Revealing it is the same as not doing it.

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If you knew your local supermarket was going to make you go home and fax your details in before you could receive your groceries

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When you go to your local grocery store, do you take your credit card with you, or do you leave it another country? See the flaw with your comparison yet?

Do you hand the cashier your credit card (Hey! Look! No need for an imprint when you have the actual card in your hand!), or do you take a laptop with you, email the cashier your card number, then hide your card so she can't look at it?

I'm sorry to seem like Im spamming the forums. I'm not trying to badmouth DH. I'm hoping my complaint can perhaps cause a change in the way the CCs are processed in the future.

My analogy to the supermarket was meant as :
If ppl knew the product they were to buy would be received several days after, there should be a warning. And not a warning in terms of, go search it yourself on the forums, Something like A warning on the forms before you hand in the money, as that is only fair practice.

And no it is not incredibly stupid to warn ppl before checking fraud. If anything it saves them more time as the fraudelent folks won't even bother! They aren't doing under cover work here.

I will obviously be patient. but l am losing business as a web designer as my previous hosting ran out, I was looking to go with a new host, decided on DH. Paid and am not about to go sign up with another one.
I know there is nothing more they can do now and as someone who does work with another hosting company I know that they've done well with their support.

But maybe in the future they can have the courtesy to place a small warning such as (If you are paying via CC you may be asked to verify via fax or This option can take several days)

I'll shut up now and wait till monday. I'm sure the rest of my hosting experience should live up to DH standards and rep which is very good.

There is a natural tendency in the marketing and sales process to maximize the speed, coolness, and smoothness information, and to minimize or gloss over the worst-case, unlikely scenario descriptions. You are right, though, that a footnote or fine print ought to warn about that too, since it is a relatively unusual procedure and delay.

The fax process was at least get mentioned in the wiki, which is advertised as the first source for Support. Now it is mentioned in one or two more places, or with some more emphasis or prominence. They originally described a "within 24 hours" process, and clearly that is not always the case, and it was buried somewhat deep.

http://wiki.dreamhost.com/index.php/Special:Search?search=fax&go=Go

You are welcome, of course, to add or modify the information there, to make it more accurate and clear.




You are welcome to a refund.-Michael;Comparing 'DH of today' with 'DH of old' does not serve much purpose.-Dallas

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I'm hoping my complaint can perhaps cause a change in the way the CCs are processed in the future.

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Why change it, if they've already determined that it has been more efficient at stopping fraud?

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My analogy to the supermarket was meant as :
If ppl knew the product they were to buy would be received several days after, there should be a warning.

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It still doesn't make sense. You have to send the fax because you don't show the card in person, like you do at the grocery store.

If you showed up at DH's office with your ID and credit card, they're not going to tell you to go home and fax what you just handed to them--just like the grocery store wouldn't.

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And no it is not incredibly stupid to warn ppl before checking fraud. If anything it saves them more time as the fraudelent folks won't even bother!

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If that made sense, then locking your front door would stop all burglars from breaking into your house. They'd just keep going until they found a house with an unlocked front door, rather than look for another entry point on the same house.

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I will obviously be patient. but l am losing business as a web designer as my previous hosting ran out, I was looking to go with a new host, decided on DH.

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If you waited until your old hosting ran out, before having a new account up and running, then you're losing business because of poor planning on your end.

There's no way you can blame that on a host -- even if it took them a month to activate your account.

To everyone else on the board thank you for being patient and logical.
I know why I was most likely flagged as a possible fraud. The name on the card and the name on the form was different as I'm using my husband's.
Although the fax that I sent both times were both in his name.
So I'll just have to wait and see how it goes.

To seiler
Yes I may have done poor planning with not setting up a host before my other host ran out. I was prepared to wait the 24-48 hours But there is a general perception when you order something that you will receive it in the given time frame. The only reason why I'm a little upset is the lack of warning and that is all. As if I knew I had to wait this long I would have paid through another method or gone with a place more instant. Enough said though, I respect their methods and if it works for them fair enough. I only still think there should be perhaps a time frame on when you will be authorized if you choose to pay a certain way.


In reply to:

"There's no way you can blame that on a host -- even if it took them a month to activate your account."

Don't even go there honestly.

In reply to:

And no it is not incredibly stupid to warn ppl before checking fraud. If anything it saves them more time as the fraudelent folks won't even bother!

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If that made sense, then locking your front door would stop all burglars from breaking into your house. They'd just keep going until they found a house with an unlocked front door, rather than look for another entry point on the same house.

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Sort of, but not quite - it's more like putting up a sign saying doors are locked and booby-trapped, expect delays. It's why people put out Warning signs saying something like, Protected by Ninja Security Service, or No Trespassing / Violators Will Be Shot, or Protected By Smith and Wesson, or Don't Be Surprised If We Ask You To Fax Rub For Us (May Take 3-5 Days For Approval). Or, We suggest arriving at least an hour before departure to allow time for security screens, or No Joking....





You are welcome to a refund.-Michael;Comparing 'DH of today' with 'DH of old' does not serve much purpose.-Dallas

Well said! Someone understands.

"Sort of, but not quite - it's more like putting up a sign saying doors are locked and booby-trapped, expect delays. It's why people put out Warning signs saying something like, Protected by Ninja Security Service, or No Trespassing / Violators Will Be Shot, or Protected By Smith and Wesson, or Don't Be Surprised If We Ask You To Fax Rub For Us (May Take 3-5 Days For Approval). Or, We suggest arriving at least an hour before departure to allow time for security screens, or No Joking...."

It is pretty well known that we require faxing on some accounts, so someone can make that more prominent on the wiki if they like.

The root of the problem lies in that the merchant has full responsibility for any fraud they process. There are many parties in any credit card transaction: the cardholder, the person using the card (there are valid and fraudulent instances of this,) the issuing bank, visa/mastercard/amex/etc, the merchant account underwriter and the merchant. If communication breaks down anywhere in the chain or fraud occurs then the cardholder can initiate a chargeback. As was pointed out by others, if we get too many chargebacks we run the very real risk of losing our merchant account.

I also wish that we could greatly reduce the hoops that must be jumped through as they do decrease signups. But fewer signups and more strongly verified customers are the price we have to pay to keep our merchant account. Whatever effect you think it is having on your business multiply that many times and you will know how I feel. It is not unusual for someone to have your complete information in this age of identity fraud, so you can imagine the difficulty in detecting the fraud in any fast and inexpensive way.

Until the cc industry can provide stronger authentication, system wide, we are left with making new customers do good ole' fashion annoying crap. If you have good ideas for how to do strong authentication that is less hassle send me a private message, and if it is reasonable I will implement it. Be forewarned though that there is no Final Ultimate Solution to the Fraud Problem. See spam for a corollary: http://www.rhyolite.com/anti-spam/you-might-be.html

I am having someone look through the faxes today as well. It was an oversight to have those sit so long on the holiday weekend, apologies.

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In reply to:

"There's no way you can blame that on a host -- even if it took them a month to activate your account."

Don't even go there honestly.

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Don't go where? It's common sense.

You should always be up and running at a new host before canceling the old account. If something comes up, then you pay another month at the old host--rather than try to blame the new host for costing you money.

Hello Michael,

If I was a new customer, I would prefer to upload a scanned image to a secure mail or form, as I stated in another thread.
It's the same thing, without the hassle and cost of looking somewhere for a fax machine. Don't expect that most people know how to send a fax from their computer... they don't.

DreamHost $97 discount code: 97promo «« Check other codes on DreamHost97.com
All money from 90promo was given to Santa's Helpers Charity

In reply to:

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It is pretty well known that we require faxing on some accounts, so someone can make that more prominent on the wiki if they like.

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There would be much less complaining about unexpected delays if you made it more prominent on the actual signup pages, of course.




You are welcome to a refund.-Michael;Comparing 'DH of today' with 'DH of old' does not serve much purpose.-Dallas

We did accept scanned images at first, but we just got way to many forgeries and people were doing stupid things like uploading the images to their public web directories and such.

I'd also guess that more people know how to spoof an IP address than a phone number.

Do you think that's what makes faxing more efficient, or is simply that most of these criminals are too lazy to send a fax and just move onto the next host?

Also, if this is something you can share, maybe it would make people think this is less of a problem if you could give an idea of just how low the percentage of sign-ups are even asked to do the fax thing.

I get the impression that some people make a big deal out of it because they think it's some major inconvenience that almost everyone has to go through.

Also, am I wrong to think that fraud prevention benefits ALL of us? I have a merchant account and the rates I'm charged are considered when I set pricing.

I like to think that by preventing as much fraud as possible, you are keeping your discount rates lower with your merchant account, which I'd assume is one of many factors in setting prices.

I guess the suggestions to weaken security (even just a little--for the sake of convenience) remind me of when people suggest things like "Wal-mart should pay their employees twice as much," yet they're not willing to see that expense added to their grocery bill when they shop there.

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'd also guess that more people know how to spoof an IP address than a phone number.

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I could swear I recently read that around here somewhere.

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Do you think that's what makes faxing more efficient, or is simply that most of these criminals are too lazy to send a fax and just move onto the next

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The feeling of deja vu is getting stronger..

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give an idea of just how low the percentage of sign-ups are even asked to do the fax thing.

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That would be interesting to see, maybe with the warnings at signup too.

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I get the impression that some people make a big deal out of it because they think it's some major inconvenience that almost everyone has to go

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Or because it comes as a complete surprise.

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fraud prevention benefits ALL of us?

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All except the fraudsters.

You are welcome to a refund.-Michael;Comparing 'DH of today' with 'DH of old' does not serve much purpose.-Dallas

At least now we can say to the newcomers that yes they have to fax it, and that for now there isn't any alternative. New similar threads pop up everytime.

Forging the digital images?? Yikes. But if they forge those, they can also forge faxes. It's really sad what people make to spare some bucks.

So fax is for now the way to go. I'll direct people here.
If they don't have a fax, try to find one in the local post office...

DreamHost $97 discount code: 97promo «« Check other codes on DreamHost97.com
All money from 90promo was given to Santa's Helpers Charity

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It's really sad what people make to spare some bucks.

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sometimes the fraudsters are not doing it for the money, but they would rather remain anonymous so they can run their spam, porn and warez operations without worrying about legal problems.

Yes we do.

Whoops.

Wholly

I got an email from the support team that stated that they do not charge any cards before the fax has arrived, can anyone verify that?

Isn't that already verified, since it came straight from them?

They could still put a hold on it to make sure it's there, but I don't see how a card holder would know the difference--and would probably just assume it's a pending charge.

I don't think it would be to their benefit to charge it until they know they want to keep it, since the merchant fees generally aren't returned after the transaction has been batched out--even if you refund the charge.

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I got an email from the support team that stated that they do not charge any cards before the fax has arrived, can anyone verify that?

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It sounds like they just verified it for you . An official policy statement from Dreamhost, which it what is sounds like you got, is about as authoritative as it gets on a "customer-to-customer" forum.

Edit:
Oops! I didn't see Seiler's post while posting this - sorry for the "what he said" reply ...

--rlparker

I guess that if you do not send the fax you wont lose any money what so ever? Even though it says when you cancel your account that they have to keep the 9.90 for registering the domain, that should be a missplaced information because you haven`t been ever even charged?

I suspect that in such cases they probably don't actually register the domain name until after they have received the fax, but you get a clarification of that from support.

--rlparker

Yeah, I think that's actually part of the activation process--and not instant like panel access.

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Edit:
Oops! I didn't see Seiler's post while posting this - sorry for the "what he said" reply ...

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That's okay--no one reads my posts anyway.

I hate not having "preview post" where you see the updated thread, like phpBB, vBulletin, etc. If I'm typing something that takes more than 15 seconds, I often open the thread in another window to see if I'm too late. Yeah, that's convenient! ;)

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If I'm typing something that takes more than 15 seconds, I often open the thread in another window to see if I'm too late. Yeah, that's convenient! ;)

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Yeah...that's a good idea, and you would think I'd remember to do that, but I often forget.

--rlparker

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That's okay--no one reads my posts anyway.

I hate not having "preview post" where you see the updated thread, like phpBB

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Or at least no one takes them too seriously. ;-)

So, would this be a good time to solicit comments and suggestions on the idea of having a "new" phpBB-based, customer-driven Forum? We could give ourselves permission and do it. :-)




- + - + -
The truly customer-driven DreamHost documentation project

Hi there,

I was all ready to sign up a new account, but now i'm not totally clear on the fax issue. I read above where Michael said that 'yes, some accounts' will have to submit the faxed rubbed copy of CC... and in other spots i'm seeing 'all' new accounts will need to fax.

Is it now mandatory for All.. or is it more related to if a card is flagged or address/CVV doesn't match up or something of that nature?

As most, I don't have a home fax set up and wanted to get this started today as soon as I signed up.. but i'm now thinking that won't happen..

Just so i'm completely clear on this.. will I need to fax the rubbed CC print to them after i've applied for my account here?

Also... what is the current turn around time for a new account set up?

Thanks much!

~Skye

Michael is the authority on such things, and you are correct that, according to Michael, *some* new accounts will have to submit the fax form.

While Dreamhost has *not* shared publicly the criteria used to determine whether the fax form is or is not required, *anecdotal* evidence form these forums *appears* to indicate that using a card with another's name on it, or using a card from certain (non-U.S.) countries or institutions *may* require the fax form be completed. There may be other criteria, but my sense of it from the forum messages is that those two issues are pretty regularly flagged.

I know of no way to tell, in advance, whether or not you will be required to submit the fax form.

The "current set-up" time appears to vary greatly if the fax is required, as the forum messages indicate, as those require a "human" interaction. During the business week, DH has indicated they *try* to have the set-up complete within 24 hours of receiving the fax, but (as is often the case with such things) YMMV.

--rlparker

Very good... :)

Those were the answers that I anticipated.. I don't expect to have any problems being the card/name/address are all the same and i'm in the US.. but as you said, different merchants have different criteria. I just wanted to have all my ducks in a row before starting the process.

Appreciate the speedy reply!

~Skye

Good Deal! Hopefully, your charge card will "fly" without further issues, and you'll be "live" within the day (wouldn't that be nice?). I just can't guarantee it will be that smooth, as previously discussed. I *can* pretty much guarantee you will find DH a great host; they pack a lot of power and flexibility into a very low-priced/high-value package and I truly hope you have a good experience here. Welcome to Dreamhost.

--rlparker

This was the email I received so I assume all CC payments need to be authorized with the fax. But I could be wrong.

We'd like to thank you for signing up for our service! Your account
information has been submitted and is currently pending approval of
your payment information.

If you are paying by credit card, please print out the authorization form at:

http://www.dreamhost.com/fax/

...and fax it to us at 714.990.2600. The amount to fill in on the form
is "". We regret the inconvenience this causes, but due to
the amount of credit-card related fraud we incur we are forced to
require fax-back authentication.

If you are paying with a check or money order or wire transfer we won't be able
to activate your account until your payment clears. Mail money orders and
checks to:

DreamHost
Attn: Payments
PMB #257
417 Associated Rd.
Brea, CA 92821
USA

and support to receive notifications on the forum
its time they change their software

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its time they change their software

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To be honest, while I didn't think much of this forum software at first, I must admit that it has kind of grown on me over the last few months. I now find it very 'comfortable' to use, especially when combined with the spell-checker in Firefox 2.

Mark

If we change the forum software people will want to put animated images in their sigs and have kitty cat avatars. oh the horror! You can submit text, what else do you need? if people don't pipe down i'll have to convert the forum so that you can only post using vi or emacs from your shell account. ;) Plus, this one is already up and running, why waste time downgrading from a perl based forum to a php based one. (*ducks)

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if people don't pipe down i'll have to convert the forum so that you can only post using vi or emacs from your shell account. ;)

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Well, that would be one way to cut down the noise level in here

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this one is already up and running, why waste time downgrading from a perl based forum to a php based one. (*ducks)

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I agree, well maybe not with the perl vs PHP bit As I said in my previous post, I have grown accustomed to this software now, it's kind of like an old pair of jeans, not the prettiest option, but 'comfortable'.

Maybe I am getting old, but in my experience, change is not always a good thing.

Mark

I've used all kinds of forum softwares (VBulletin, phpBB, Snitz, punBB, SMF, etc etc), and even with VBulletin being my favorite, from an user and admin standpoint, I really don't dislike posting here... yes it may look a bit outdated, but it does the service. Whatever you decide is fine with me.

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