Fortunately, I woke up !

Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Minare
Posted on: 2008-07-27 07:03:00

Hello,

I am a dh customer for half and a year and I want to tell my experience...

It was good when I first heard about the disk storage place and the band limit with a very little amount of money. I was really impressed. I installed a forum software and wp on my domain. Everything seemed perfect till I had 4 thousand members.

Later on, my forum gave internal errors over and over. When I asked for help, they said it was a third party job blah blah... However I knew it was not because of the software I used but because of the host.

One day when I entered my website, I saw it was denied. Someone had played with htaccess file in order to prevent people enter. I changed haccess and told dreamhost not to do such a thing again. Did they listen ?

Of course not, they made sth more ununderstandable, after a month, they closed my website telling me that my website was too popular ( maybe not a correct term, but this is what they said ) for dreamhost. How could it be I asked ?

Because I used to use only 60 gb band in a month and 3 gb of my storage, I couldn't find a sensible reason. They answered my mail but not by finding a solution. They wanted me to buy a VPS. It looked like a joke to me. Why would I buy a vps for such a little website. If dreamhost woudn host it , what was it going to host for me ? a simple blog ten people entered each day ?

I didn't accept their vps offer. Even if I was going to buy a vps, it wasn't going to be dreamhost just because I thought they deceived me and others...

I moved my website to another host and mywebsite got faster, I have nearly 40 thousand members now and everything is great.

Do I hate dreamhost? Yes I do. Bcoz, I think Dremhost earns customers with their little paid hosting and asks them to buy vps after a while. That is what I understood.

And that band, storage matter. Why do u offer such a big storage and band limit ? You couldn't stand my 60 gb band for a month, did u ? U deceive people in this way.

Anyway, I woke up, it was a bad dream. I am happy for the moment, when I am awake...

I am open to any comments and criticisms and I hope dreamhost is also...

Have a nice dream !

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: patricktan
Posted on: 2008-07-27 08:40:00

In reply to:

Everything seemed perfect till I had 4 thousand members.


That is a lot for a shared server to support.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Lensman
Posted on: 2008-07-27 10:17:00

In reply to:

That is a lot for a shared server to support.


That's true, but the real questions are which forum software, which wordpress plugins, and what the max simultaneous pagesviews and posts were. From the description of the "errors", it was more than the server could handle.

If it's really true that just by moving to another host, the apps magically performed much better at ten times the traffic, then the OP made the right move. If problems crop up after a while, then they've just postponed the problem. If there's no spin in the story, this doesn't seem likely.

However, since the OP seems to have an agenda and doesn't sound like a technically sophisticated webmaster with a sufficient understanding of web application performance management, I'd vote for this story containing a lot of spin. I apologize if this sounds cynical, but I've become cynical over the years after finding out that every single complaining poster here has put spin on their story and not revealed all relevant facts.

Anyway, my best guess is that either the traffic or the software changed in the move to make the site's computational demands much less. Either that or he's found and amazing shared host giving dedicated server CPU levels for shared server pricing.

Just my opinion. Apologies again for the cynicism.

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Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Minare
Posted on: 2008-07-27 11:15:00

Hi,

I 've been on forums for years and I think, I understand u. Bcoz users are apt to speak as much deplorable as they can in order to effect others and just skip what suits to their collocutor.
I could decorate my story with the "support messages" I sent and received, but it would be too long to read. Maybe I seem brutal when I blame DH only. What made me indurable to post that story is the general innocent SIGN UP of DH which includes:

500 GB Disk Storage
5 TB Monthly Bandwidth
97-Day Money-Back Guarantee
Plus many more features!
Sign up now for $5.95/mo*

That is either not true or there is things missing. Whatever it was that caused them to close mywebsite, it should be written as well to the sign up conditions. Bcoz, if u make a quick search, I am not the only one, maybe few of whom dared writing his story here.

In the first months I was happy, I was not spinning when I used to boast of being a dreamer. Not nothing changed. I ust told what I experienced and I directly said that I hated dh and I do.

Of course u should be liberal when answering one's post , that is why I am not criticising you (Lensman). I said I didn't spin just bcoz I didn't. But webmasters attach some events with their experiences they had with their users. That is why I know what u feel about my story. Thank u for ur opinions.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Lensman
Posted on: 2008-07-27 14:56:00

In reply to:

That is either not true or there is things missing. Whatever it was that caused them to close mywebsite, it should be written as well to the sign up conditions. Bcoz, if u make a quick search, I am not the only one, maybe few of whom dared writing his story here.


The one thing that is missing in the equation is the question of web server or database server CPU and memory utilization. These resources are only specified by VPS hosts as limits or guarantees. Well, actually, some regular shared hosts do set limits on CPU, memory, and database utilization.

Dreamhost used to publish limits for these resources, but dropped the hard limits some time ago. I wasn't here back then, but I think this was due to the fact that it's hard to measure server load due to these items when the usage is spiky or related to backup processes running niced in the off hours and they didn't want to set artificial limits that penalized account holders who were actually ok at the expense of the chronic resource hogs.

Anyway, I do understand that my point of view is intentionally a devil's advocate one to your own and I do appreciate your understanding of the need for it. It's only through open discussion of disagreements that shared understanding can be created - and I do appreciate the Dreamhost has given us this board to share our views, however controversial, without regard for a classic "only good news" view of marketing.

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Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Starbuck
Posted on: 2008-07-27 19:35:00

Lensman, I think you're being pretty generous. This is obviously a child. The adult perspective of this would be to monetize the site at least enough to support extending the resources as required. Anyone who has the good fortune to get thousands of registered users on a site should invest a little something in its upkeep beyond $6/month. I don't care if this is a site for a game, music, or comic books, from thousands of registered users there will be some small number of people who will click ads or send a couple bucks via PayPal to keep it going. The money can be used to get an expert to evaluate resource consumption, to do some optimization, or to purchase extended services to support the demand. Where is the rule that says absolutely every site of any level of popularity can or should run on a shared host? I think the availability of shared hosts to the common person has created the expectation that we can support unlimited demand for virtually no cost.

I've seen sites fold for lack of funding. I'm sorry to say this but the world is all about supply and demand, and if there isn't enough demand to fund a site then the model is wrong and it probably deserves to go away. No, I'm not being capitalistic about this or siding on the side of the cathedral vs the bazaar. There is a cost for what we do and someone needs to pay the cost. This guy is complaining because he can't support tens of thousands of users for $6/month? Gimme a break. I don't want to pay for the load imposed by this guy's successful site with tens of thousands of visitors, so he has to. He can fix his problems with a VPS, a dedicated server, some expert consultation to properly point the finger at the software or the resources, or maybe even by splitting up his site so that it spreads the load to different servers. Sure, maybe going to another host was the best thing he could do - for him and us. I would rather that DH management allow this customer to look elsewhere than to try to keep him happy at all costs, because "all costs" means imposing on our (sometimes non-prime) levels of service.

I have also had issues with a small site running lots of mods, and I'm getting bad enough performance that I'm considering DHPS. But before I spend money on that, I'm going to have someone look at the site to make sure the software/database isn't abusive. That's what this guy should have done before moving his site, or as you've said he might just be delaying a problem that just going to smack him on yet another server.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: sXi
Posted on: 2008-07-28 00:22:00

In reply to:

Whatever it was that caused them to close mywebsite, it should be written as well to the sign up conditions.


I think when someone buys a ticket on a bus they don't expect that they'll have the whole bus to themselves. If our sites become a continual drain in a shared environment and thus impacting other customers then there is little option than to have us moved to VPS. I'm sure you agree that this is entirely reasonable.

40k members is a great accomplishment. Congratulations! smile


Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Minare
Posted on: 2008-07-28 04:41:00

Here are some people advocating dreamhost such as Sturbuck and I dunno how much he gets from dreamhost for this job. I am not a child and my forum or board is not about a game, music whatever u said. I have never thought about gaining money from my users via paypall or else. Bcoz I am not a robber. I accused u of being a dreamhost advocator just bcoz of ur prejudiced opinions about me. Maybe I am rich, maybe I can buy thousands of servers. But is this the matter we are discussing ? If dreamhost is promising to undertake some responsibles for its customers, it will, and however much shall it cost, it doesn't matter again. If dreamhost said 10$ , I am sure people would give that 10 $ but they would demand a qualified service just like I did, ( by mistake ... )

Yes I have thousands of members but the problem occured long before I had them, when my forum was about 4 thousand... And I had optimized my forum, uninstalled every single mod that would cause slowing the server. Why don't you try searching Dreamhost's mistakes before giving biased answers, or make some search to determine if I am the only one ?

Dreamhost is not a professional hosting company anymore ( and I dunno if it was, I just heard ).That is what I see, It is just an overseller. Oversellers do not care their customers, they just fuse and defuse the electricity cables. And most probably that is what they did for my website. But As Sturbuck doesn't care what I suffered, he accuses me.

I don't wish u to suffer the same, but in oder to understand me, if you have to suffer, then suffer ( Sturbuck )...

Now, I don't want anything for myself from Dh.

what I want is for the future customers. Change your sign up conditions. Bcoz it is a trick, a nice trick to sell vps.

I dunno why Sturbuck wrote this answer for, but thanks anyway, bcoz it doesn't include any simple satisfying sentence. just blaming me instead of asking or searching if what I experienced was true or not. u are biased man. sorry but u are.





Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: dwr
Posted on: 2008-07-28 09:00:00

In reply to:

I am not a child



Congratulations on being the first actual adult that I have seen who uses "u" and "bcoz" a lot.

In reply to:

Oversellers do not care their customers, they just fuse and defuse the electricity cables



I would be genuinely interested in more information about this cable fusing and defusing stuff. Is that a metaphor, and if so then to what does it refer and compare with what jobs within Dreamhost?

In reply to:

And most probably that is what they did for my website



They fused (or defused) the electricity cables? Were these the electricity cables that go to your website? So then they aren't metaphorical, but rather they are real?

Please do clarify on these electricity cables, and of their fusing and defusing. I was not previously aware of this concern.

In reply to:

I don't wish u to suffer the same, but in oder to understand me, if you have to suffer, then suffer



I think I will put in a suggestion to Dreamhost to make voodoo curses against the forum TOS.

Evidently your sites were causing too much of a load (perhaps during either the fusion or deffusion process?)... that's just the way it is... shared servers can only give YOU the individual so much before your neighbors start to suffer. If I had 4 thousand regular people on a forum I would definitely be wondering if I were still within the limits of what "regular" shared hosting can provide. You may have a different internal gauge reading, but Dreamhost can look at the loads and see what's holistically going on with the server... I am sure that they truly saw that it was necessary or they would not have bothered you.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Minare
Posted on: 2008-07-28 10:13:00

dwr

do u know sth else other than making fun of someone ? Is this the way u answer all topics here dwr ? I didn't write any fuckin word that would force your hands to use the fuckin keyboard in order to give me a mocking reply, right ? Did I ? Are you testing my patient here ? huh bro ????

About the fusin and defusin cables, u are right, it was metaphorically used, what I meant was the blocking of my website suddenly, without giving any warn or anytime for me to correct things. That is what I meant and I am sure u got me.

And my words, u , bcoz , whatever, I didn know that it is a must to write them here as a complete word !!!

Shorter ones makes sentences more beautiful, in my opinion...

Why do you all support dreamhost, I don't get you , r u workers here ?

Is dreamhost perfect reallly ? That is my question. I am already gone, I am already out of ur borders. Maybe your sites need some guests and then u may see what my trouble is with dreamhost. huh !!!

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: dwr
Posted on: 2008-07-28 10:39:00

In reply to:

r u workers here ?



I is not, but that what you just wrote is comedy gold, and I beg you that if you take your hosting business elsewhere, to please return from time to time and provide humor for me and others. You see, reddit doesn't update fast enough, and you really have to dig through digg to get to the good stuff... but man, you can just cruise Dreamhost at about any time and find some fun, and you sir are bringin it in barges!

Listen, facts iz facts... you can only push so much on a purely shared server. I do not know if you are "getting rooked" or not... I do not know if a shared server should be able to handle more than 4000 users on your forum and Dreamhost is just sucking ass for you, but I do know that you are welcome to see if you can fit the same site on another provider for the same or less money, and come back for years to come and let us know how you've successfully escaped the clutches of Josh's evil marketing mind control that he has over us zombies... I would be interested in knowing, as a matter of fact, where you achieve such glorified success!

With Dreamhost you either love em or detest them. If you love them then you are probably getting satisfying service and have come to enjoy a greater Dreamhost experience (let's face it, few hosts have a strong enough "aura" to have truly created a hosting "experience") as a plus. If you detest them then you will have no choice but to leave The Experience. You will try them... your pages may even get served... but they will never satisfy you quite like Dreamhost.

Put up banners if you must! Maybe some AdSense... sell your soul a little so you can afford some dedicated, then implement your world commerce takeover scheme until you need your own data center and can afford to hire Dreamhost as your janitors, and still afford to pay them more than they even make now!Dude, you're just one vision away from having Google looking to buy you out!

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Minare
Posted on: 2008-07-28 11:08:00

dwr

u speak too much, but you say nothing bro, bcoz u didn write anything related to what I asked, why may the problem have occured, and what the solutions were but weren't implemented...

if a 4 thousand member website needs a server, paralelly, 40 thousand member websites would need not a server but servers, however, I am on a shared server with my 40 thousand members, is this sensible ?

And u misunderstood me about sth. I never said I can't afford a dedicated server. I can earn hundreds of $ in a month only from google adverts and maybe I do, I am not discussing that dreamhost is cheap or expensive. I just can't reconcile my logic, why dreamhost doesn't let its customers the whole thing. That cpu matter for example. Why does it leave its customers naked on the web ? asking them to buy vps or else e site will not open ? Is this moral for your marketing mind dwr ? or moral to dreamhost marketing mind ?

Earn as much as you can, foo the customers, yeah, in this way u can be very rich maybe, sell thousands of servers, vps, dedicated, hosting whatever and be number one in the world, with money, not with customer satisfaction or contentment. This shouldn be the marketing mind as well

What are we discussin now ? That dreamhost was right to close my website ? or I am an ignorant of the marketing mottos ?

anyway, i really do detest dreamhost, u r right, and I wrote it in my first message. u seem like having or had nice dreams. have it then.

thank you all for your answers and opinions




Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: dwr
Posted on: 2008-07-28 11:16:00

In reply to:

What are we discussin now ? That dreamhost was right to close my website ?



Nosir, we weren't discussing that at all, we were just about to solve the riddle of some ancient hieroglyphs that had baffled anthropologists and linguists, not to mention the astronomers, cosmologist and out right religious loons... when all the sudden you started talking about this, Dreamhost thing... what is the Dreamhost that you speak of?

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Minare
Posted on: 2008-07-28 12:49:00

u deserve the most kind swears but I won't , go on like this, how do people believe in someone who has no respect to others, who knows nothing other than mocking when they have no words to say. it is my bad, I thought u were grown enough.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: dwr
Posted on: 2008-07-28 13:13:00

In reply to:

u deserve the most kind swears


I sure do appreciate you keeping it to the kind ones and not wishin them mean ol nasty swears on me. So am I understanding purely right that you've got 40,000 members on your Dreamhost hosted forum? 40,000? That sounds to me like Dreamhost is deserving of some folks being impressed. I hope I can get up to 40,000 members on my sites before having to move up.

In reply to:

but I won't , go on like this


Ok Mr. Shatner, but before you go please do me one favor...

In reply to:

And u misunderstood me about sth


Tell me what is sth, one of the people you met from the future?

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: sXi
Posted on: 2008-07-28 23:57:00

You're not supposed to talk about Josh's evil marketing mind control out loud !!


Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: dwr
Posted on: 2008-07-29 00:22:00

It's sorta like the moon landing or 911 hoaxes, heck... it's even sorta like Roswell... the govt just lets people talk about it openly because they know that not enough people will believe it.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: mir
Posted on: 2008-07-29 07:31:00

Just for the record, I DO work here at DreamHost and I have to point out that our Terms of Service adequately cover the situation the original poster encountered:

http://dreamhost.com/tos.html

Specifically Material Products, item 7:

Servers are shared with other customers, and as such IRC-related activities or severely CPU intensive CGI scripts (e.g. chat scripts, scripts which have bugs causing them to not close properly after being run, etc) are not encouraged. Any application that listens for inbound network connections (even if the application would otherwise be allowed) are not permitted. BitTorrent clients, proxy servers/scripts, IRC bots and bouncers (BNC) specifically may not be run on any DreamHost Web Hosting server. If your processes are adversely affecting server performance disproportionately DreamHost Web Hosting reserves the right to negotiate additional charges with the Customer and/or the discontinuation of the offending processes.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: jon2
Posted on: 2008-07-29 11:47:00

Actually, I have to side with the customer.

I understand server performance and configuration well -- and at 40k users, you would be best off on a dedicated system...

BUT

Dreamhost is offering 500GB of storage 5TB of transfer a month...

5TB of data /monthly is ~167GB of data daily. That's a lot of throughput

I strongly doubt that anyone would be able to push 167GB a day without using >10% of server resources and causing server issues.

I agree that people should be throttled or smacked down, or whatever -- I'm constnatly having to call in for tech support because my server basically stops working when another user has a big day -- but the marketing people promised something that seems to be incompatible with the tech department.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: scjessey
Posted on: 2008-07-29 12:08:00

I would like to see a much easier way for customers to monitor the resources they use. The current system is absolutely rubbish, and beyond the comprehension of average DreamHosters who use the "one-click install" features. What is needed is some sort of human-readable "meter" or "gauge" that tells them how much resources they are consuming. Preferably at the process level, but at least (and perhaps also) at the domain level.

-- si-blog --

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: michael
Posted on: 2008-07-29 12:53:00

If you are running a dynamically generated text based website bandwidth and diskspace aren't going to be your constraints. A good example of a text based dynamic site is the DreamHost web panel. Applications where you would need large amounts of bandwidth are things like serving video. This is common knowledge. And is true even if you are running your own server farm.

As I have pointed out in the past that with hundreds of thousands of active users spread across a couple dedicated machines our panel machines rarely even go above a load of 1. If your application is causing instability on the web server there really is something wrong with it. And seriously if you are not financially ready to move off of shared hosting with an app of that size you need to reconsider your business plan.

Shared hosting is great for moderately popular websites and even spikes from slashdot or digg. But if you have a website that is permanently overloading a web server its time to optimize it or to secure some real muscle for your (at that point) very popular app.

To point out again: we actually do a lot of work for a customer before contacting them and continue to work with them after that to get things under control. If we were not so helpful you would notice a lot more then the occasional obstinate abuser popping up in the forums.

We want your website to work well and be popular. We work hard to keep it running smoothly. It is only when someone basically refuses to actually do anything to work with us that they end up here complaining.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Minare
Posted on: 2008-07-29 14:44:00

for what shall I complain ? I won't have any profit after this talk. There is only sth to be enlightened. As one of you said, if somone use lets say 200 gb of band , it will surely force cpu, right ? Dreamhost is directing customers wrong. I would rather Dh be frank and directly inform about cpu matter before making customers.




Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Lensman
Posted on: 2008-07-29 15:27:00

I once mirrored a download of a game demo that could have generated a lot of bandwidth usage without much CPU utilization. The download was 1GB. It's cases like this where the limits are great - you don't have to worry about disk or bandwidth when you're building your site.

I've been thinking about doing a video podcast rather than just text blogging. I'm sure I'll start to worry about bandwidth at that point rather than CPU, but I'm sure you guys can set me straight on that account, right?

Use the 3DOM50 promo code for 3 extra lifetime domains and $50 off
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Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: michael
Posted on: 2008-07-29 15:50:00

minare what is your domain? and no serving 200GB of video would not cause resource overload we have customers who do that.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: michael
Posted on: 2008-07-29 16:25:00

ok I found your account. and some of your domains:

http://www.minare.net/
http://www.byzihh.com/forum/
http://blogdizel.com/

Your account is active with many domains still hosted with us. Not sure how many of the 77 domains and sub domains are currently hosted with us as it looks as if you moved some to another host but left them active in our panel. You paid us $93.80 for two years of hosting. I would be willing to close your account and give you a full refund.

Our last interaction with you was 2 months 11 days ago and your account is still active. Seems like you moved the domain minare.net that was causing trouble to another host, but left many with us still without issue? Reading through the support history it looks like support blocked a few ips that were hitting your domain pretty hard to stabilize it but didn't take the domain itself down or anything.

Anyways, if you want a refund let me know. After researching this case more, it seems you are being fairly unreasonable.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: michael
Posted on: 2008-07-30 01:12:00

The process accounting we use is built into the Linux Kernel. But, the difficult part is not understanding how many processor minutes you are using, it is understanding how to optimize your website. We have quite a lot of documentation on how to do that and we offer a lot of hand holding when someone is having trouble with their website. In light of the amount of work we do in that regard I can't help but chuckle when a chicken comes running through the forums with its head cut off and stirs up a little "down with the man" indignation.

In this particular case all that happened was support blocked a few IPs that were hitting his website particularly hard in order to stabilize his website and the server. His account wasn't canceled, people were not dying, he was not ignored. I mean seriously if we were being the big evil man we would have just closed his account. At $4/month he isn't even covering what it costs to provide all the support time he was allotted, much less the actual computing resources he was using. We could have easily closed his account for the profanity laced messages he was sending in and been done with it.

We have a great team that really is just trying to provide as much as we can at the lowest price possible. Our success is predicated on the idea that if you hire intelligent technically skilled people and give them a positive work environment that you can provide real value to customers. If it was anything more complicated then that it probably would not still be working. And for people who have big sites that need a graph of their memory and processor usage we came up with the VPS solution that works really well and is still pretty cheap. We also updated our website today to include the ability to sign up for VPS right from the start. It should make it more clear that shared hosting would be a good buy for people who need less than the minimum VPS setup.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: scjessey
Posted on: 2008-07-30 04:03:00

I don't doubt what you are saying with respect to this particular user. All I'm saying is that for the average customer, trying to understand what level of resources they are using (and why) is voodoo-double-dutch-magical-mystery-tour stuff. It would be awesome if (much like with /stats) every domain could have a web page that offered some sort of "gauge" (or set thereof) that could indicate resource usage.

I don't know nearly enough about Linux (or Apache, for that matter) to know if this is even technically feasible, but it would be great if it were possible to monitor CGI processes in the same way as one used to be able to monitor things when we used mod_php.

-- si-blog --

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Minare
Posted on: 2008-07-30 08:49:00

Hello michael

My domain was minare.net

the other domains are not important.

and minare.net is not hosted in dreamhost now ;)

if u check minare.net dns , u will see. and the site I am talking about is minare.net



Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: sdayman
Posted on: 2008-07-30 11:52:00

Holy crap are you dense. Michael already pointed this out, so he's well aware of your situation.

In reply to:

Seems like you moved the domain minare.net that was causing trouble to another host, but left many with us still without issue?



He's already invited you to leave if you're unhappy.

In reply to:

Anyways, if you want a refund let me know. After researching this case more, it seems you are being fairly unreasonable.



Take him up on the offer.

-Scott

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Minare
Posted on: 2008-07-31 03:00:00

the other websites are either not working ( eltsite.com for example) or don't have guest, I left them already. When the domains are expired, I won't renew and they will get closed themselves, that is why I didn't need to move them. Only minare.net was important for me and I moved it.
Thank u for ur concern

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: philippgerard
Posted on: 2008-08-11 08:43:00

As a potential costumer surfing the forums here in order to find out what the typical complaints are and how support deals with them I must say that I get - this might sound ironical to some people - a good impression of DH. If some people don't realize what SHARED hosting means and hope to gzip their plain-text pages to squeeze out the last bit of the 5TB traffic ... no surprise the servers go down. As michael implies it, the usual reason for high server load are not necessarily 4 or 8 or 40k users but the way the site is coded. I have multiple sites with thousands of concurrent users and only few of them need their own server - it's only a question of code "design".


Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: independent
Posted on: 2008-08-12 09:49:00

In reply to:

If some people don't realize what SHARED hosting means and hope to gzip their plain-text pages to squeeze out the last bit of the 5TB traffic ... no surprise the servers go down.


In reply to:


dwr: It's sorta like the moon landing or 911 hoaxes, heck... it's even sorta like Roswell... the govt just lets people talk about it openly because they know that not enough people will believe it.


Actually, I think shared hosting is a lot like fractional reserve banking - another never-ending source of conspiracy theories. Server resources are like checking deposits and everything works out and money is generated - until a bunch of people decide to withdraw their entire account on the same day.

Oh, and a "server timeout" isn't quite as catastrophic as its counter-part - the FDIC takeover/bailout.

~
my obligatory dreamhost coupon

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: pyr02k1
Posted on: 2008-08-19 03:39:00

I've been with Dreamhost for a short time compared to most here, but I'm actually happy so far. I've dealt with support on numerous issues in the past 8 or 10 months and they've helped every time. I'm only posting here because I see one user complaining that he was shut down for abusing the living hell out of a shared server. Honestly, what did you expect?

The reason for my coming to dreamhost wasnt because I wanted a new host. At the time, I was using a reseller account on another host for $24.99/mth with 200gb/mth on bandwidth. I wasnt actually doing much with it. Hosting friends sites, etc. I was using maybe, maybe, 10-20gb in bandwidth, then i started hosting images out to a few popular forums and my bandwidth spiked to 100gb/mth. They shut me down, locked me out and kicked me off. No support, no messages, no responses, just gone. For a spike in bandwidth on a reseller account, and they claimed not to be overselling...

Here on the other hand, I've done worse then that by several times over. I'm hosting random images to forums, I'm running a small dynamic sig program that pushes out plenty of images. On top of that, I'm hosting out bandwidth to a COD4 Mod server that is pulling between 2 and 9gb a day.

If that seems annoying enough on a shared, I'm using up a lot of sql time too. I push almost 2 million queries a day. (with a ratio of 400, so its all organized well and good) It adds between 1000 and 50000 rows a day at 1.13 million rows as of now. Not really that much considering that the mysql server is pushing 146,000 select queries, 31,000 updates and 1,600 inserts ... an hour. In 5.5 days, its done 23,000,000+ queries, just on those 3 types. My site though, loads fairly quick.

About a week ago, I noticed it was slowing a bit, especially since i'd hit the 1 million mark on rows. I ignored it since it was being updated by a cron and isnt a big issue in terms of views a day (maybe 400 total by about 200 users). I got a wonderful email, not sarcasm, actually a wonderful email, from Justin. He actually saw the load that one query was applying (this isnt my script, and it seemed to be well indexed when i installed it), and found a quick solution by creating a new index. I figured that this was the best support i'd ever seen. he ... helped me. i didnt get shut down, suspended, blocked, banned, etc. he actually helped me. One index took a 5,000 row query at 6 seconds down to a 1 row query at 0.01 seconds.

Actually, as a side note to the index he fixed for me, I've noticed that instead of showing 0 days and 21 hours of played time in the game server, as it always had on the main page that has that data, it now shows the proper 831 days of played time that it should. So he fixed 2 issues without even warning me once. He sent me an FYI email to say what he did. Some people would like to be told in advance, some wouldnt. I prefer to be told in advance, but when it saves my account from likely being suspended for it, i'm all for it.

I've dealt with DH Support on a few issues. I've had mostly good experiences, with only one bad (one where 5 people didnt know what in the hell i was talking about, then one guy came back from his weekend off and knew exactly what i meant. this was a very unique set of circumstances so i dont hold it against any of the other support people since it probably wasnt asked before that day, or 4 days).

Weighing my options. I love DH as a whole. I'm used to CPanel, but the DH Panel is fine for most things. The Support rocks (the issue above with Justin, I sent a response a few hours after his email and received a response in 20 minutes). The place rocks. They let me expand from using 1-2gb a month when i moved over (after leaving my domain offline for a few weeks) to almost 200gb/mth without any issue. I've abused SSH on plenty of occasions to get a file from another server at 10mb/s instead of uploading from home at 80kb/s. Bad indexes on sql that they helped me fix twice.

In other words, DH is either loved or hated. I love it. I love the support. And, for your complaint of expansion and overselling... http://blog.dreamhost.com/2006/05/18/the-truth-about-overselling/ - its old. but it still applies.

And as for your site ... yea, 40,000 members... ok. fine.

Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in D:\home\minare.net\httpdocs\tr\wp-content\plugins\WP_SMF\smf_api_1.1.php on line 903

Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in D:\home\minare.net\httpdocs\tr\wp-includes\wp-db.php on line 94

thats usually a bad thing to have pop up ... and a windows server. ......

88,527 Messages 13,339 Topics Users: 42,088 Members

.... thats a little more then 2 posts per member. Honestly, not that many. Yea, it'll be a good number of sql lines and such, but using a very well indexed forum wouldnt kill you either. It takes a bit to load (Though, its showing Germany as the host) and in the half hour since my last load, thats gone up to 88,531 posts, same number of topics, but 42,103 members.

Honestly, that seems a bit off to me. I'm on a forum with only 630 members and we have 12,000 posts. Your counts seem a little lopsided. Take out our 2 highest posters, and we still have 8,000 posts on 628 users. (they spam a lot...) Given, thats with only about 200 posting users. The rest are 0 counts. But moving it up, leaving my 2 high out. if we had kept this pace to 42103 users and kept pace on posts as well (this is 8000 for 628 users), I should expect 536000 posts. Now, thats being unreasonable. I would expect under half that with 42k users. The forum i used to post at had 124k users (this is 2 years ago, at that) and held 1.3m posts. one topic was 25k posts long. thats still over 5 posts a user, offset by the daily posters vs the 0 posters. You might want to look into that a bit. I was told SMF was a good forum, but the forum I mention above with 1.3m was running a slightly customized version of vbulletin. Most current forums can handle the load you have with very very few hiccups.

In closing. Dreamhost rocks. You had a bad experience, fine. But dont bust on them for trying to help you as best they could. They shut you down for overuse of resources. All hosts will do that. I suspect you'll be on your current hosts forums in a few months, if that, to complain that they shut you down. If you keep expanding at the rate you are, with user counts, you will need to get a virtual or dedicated box to handle the loads. You think its bad now, wait until the post counts sky rocket a bit. You'll see serious issues with loads due to expansion and your going to hate it. No reasonable shared host will take and allow a site to keep running if it eats the server to bits.

My recommendation, get a small virtual server, doesnt matter where, and this way you can expand it as needed to support loads. And for the love of everything, get off of the win server and get on a good *nix or *bsd host. if you plan to keep expanding, your going to need it.

--John V

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: e4solo
Posted on: 2008-08-26 22:14:00

Lensman -- makes apologies for cynicism
Starbuck -- theorizes Minare is non-adult.
sXi -- "when someone buys a ticket on a bus they don't expect that they'll have the whole bus"
dwr -- a summation of his comments would require (3) flushes, I recommend banning
mir -- made sense, quoted facts, but not evidence
sdayman (Scott) -- attempts to join dwr, but with elegance
michael -- "support blocked a few IPs", yadda yadda, (I'm just a poor businessman trying to hang on.)
pyr02k1 -- "Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded"

Shame on you all.

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: Lensman
Posted on: 2008-08-26 23:43:00

In reply to:

Nowhere in this thread have I seen a response enumerating his violations of the above.

I have read that his site used "a lot of resources". But if his site did not exceed the above parameters, then DH has no case.


Uh, I disagree. I believe it's the case that all customers have to comply with the Terms of Service that are the... uh... terms of our service agreement with Dreamhost. Besides, the business relationship is at will and Dreamhost can terminate the agreement at any time with 30 days notice even without cause.

In reply to:

P.S.
Lensman -- an apology doesn't dimish cynicism


Nope, but the revelation that my cynicism was justified may... uh... justify the cynicism.

I apologized for being cynical and thinking that there might be more to the story than what was posted by the OP. For instance, I postulated that his site may have used too much CPU. Sadly, it turns out I was right.

Besides, I'm not trying to diminish my cynicism, I was apologizing for it. By which I mean that I wanted to express that I would prefer that I didn't have to subject others to my expression of distrust about the purported details of the situation. I continue to take full responsibility for the cynicism I demonstrated.

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Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: pyr02k1
Posted on: 2008-08-27 04:16:00

Haha, how was my max execution exceeded shameful? It isnt my site, so therefore I'm not shamed. The fact that his site couldnt beat out the max time wasnt my fault, his site couldnt handle it.

As to the minutes on a cell phone comment. Your buying hosting, not minutes, I understand that. But you cant expect the host to let you buy hosting, and have it cause issues with the other people on the same SHARED server who bought hosting. So you need to do one of 2 simple things. Either get a dedicated server, or get a well indexed site. A well indexed SQL would save a whole boatload of troubles if your having the issues that would cause you to be shutdown, as well as the issue i pointed out.

One well indexed site would save you a lot of money, or ... minutes on a cellphone.

Like the other guy said, you cant expect 90mph and 60mpg, it doesnt happen. if you want 90mph, you can expect 10mpg, but if you want 60mpg, maybe 45 is more your speed. you could probably fix all of your problems by switching forums to a new board. convert your current ones over to a good one and work from there. You'll see tremendous increases in speed and decreases in load times.

As to no one saying how he exceeded. ...... we did. he exceeded what was listed in the agreement to accepted when he signed up. The stuff you list is what you get, but as with ANY host or company, theres the stuff that you dont see listed on the front page. All of that is listed in the TOS. He didnt abide by it, so he got shut down.

--John V

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: sXi
Posted on: 2008-08-27 18:05:00

@e4solo:

In reply to:

sXi -- The ticket offers conveyance on a schedule and doesn't imply "up to 90mph and 60mpg".


Exactly. "Schedule" being your operative in respect to my analogy.

The Terms of Service is very easy to read:

"If your processes are adversely affecting server performance disproportionately DreamHost Web Hosting reserves the right to negotiate additional charges with the Customer and/or the discontinuation of the offending processes."

Thank you for reiterating the point, albeit unintentionally smile


Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: e4solo
Posted on: 2008-08-27 19:52:00

"Uh, I disagree...[he] used too much CPU."
"As to no one saying how he exceeded.... we did."

Please furnish the URL[s] and/or quote the facts about the alleged violation[s].
<!--

Minare said he read, agreed, and purchased the following specifications :
500 GB Disk Storage
5 TB Monthly Bandwidth

Minare claims he did not violate the above. It's that simple.

It is the responsibility of the host to provide adequate service so that a site using (up-to) these advertised figures doesn't cause discomfort to other customers.

Above, DH said they blocked "a few IPs" because they were generating too many hits. But DH didn't say the IPs were generating "hits in excess of 5 TB". In addition, no "cpu usage" figure was quoted.

sXi says "disproportionate cpu usage" is covered in the TOS. The host, an experienced vendor of these services, expects the advertised service levels might require resources beyond simply serving a website's HTML. Define "disproportionate". Is there no value= in the TOS? Does CPU use supercede or is it subordinate to "5 TB" ?

The defenders in this thread propose the client should know software and its effect on a server. This would be the same as saying you shouldn't goto the doctor unless you already know whats wrong and can prescribe your own medicine. If the host said "one-click installs only" or "No Databases", then he could control the situation. But that's not the market. Michael's 7/30/08 candid comments are acceptable, but he mostly notes overhead caused by errant customers and code. A large ration of hand-holding -is- the market. (Can you imagine the phone calls at AOL when they started...and THEY were using their own program!)

A friend once said "MS Windows, and particularly XP, is so complicated I'm amazed it works as well as it does." Think about that in terms of a server running "public-domain-amateur-coded-Linux" under "public-domain-amateur-coded-perl/asp/cfm/etc". It's truly amazing that it works. And public domain software (easily obtained for free [just like Linux and Apache] and maybe edited by lesser-amateurs) makes the marvel even MORE amazing.

Competition between hosts dictate hand-holding is an expense of doing hosting business. And that's the way it is.

In this case, it seems Minare and/or his code became an inconvenience to DH. Then DH chose the greater-good for other customers who were not pushing the boundaries like Minare. Via "General Policy [TOS]" Minare was excused. Not that I would have chosen otherwise. But that's NOT what I'm reading in this public defamation of a former DH customer with a valid complaint against advertised specifications.

DH could have offered to repair the problems directly. DH could have called on the techno-participants of this discussion to assist. DH could have offered to assist choosing a host and moving the site. This could have been a "success story". I see no suggestions like that in this discussion.


Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: pyr02k1
Posted on: 2008-08-27 20:31:00

In reply to:

In this case, it seems Minare and/or his code became an inconvenience to DH. Then DH chose the greater-good for other customers who were not pushing the boundaries like Minare. Via "General Policy [TOS]" Minare was excused. Not that I would have chosen otherwise. But that's NOT what I'm reading in this public defamation of a former DH customer with a valid complaint against advertised specifications.


He had a complaint against ADVERTISED SPECS. How much would you bet that he DIDNT EVEN READ THE TOS. It's a fact of life that abour 98% of people will either not read the TOS or just take a quick glance. If he did read it, he couldn't really complain, and we wouldnt be talking now.

In reply to:

DH could have offered to repair the problems directly. DH could have called on the techno-participants of this discussion to assist. DH could have offered to assist choosing a host and moving the site. This could have been a "success story". I see no suggestions like that in this discussion.


This was HIS SCRIPT causing the issues that had him shut down. Whether or not he programmed it is moot as he was running it. They could have called on the forums, but they ARENT ALLOWED. There is a wonderful group of people out there that would have had DH by the BALLS for posting a confidential support ticket on a public forum. So NO, they couldnt have called on the participants here. Minare on the other hand, could have. IF he would have said "Hey guys, look, me and Support cant get it right, can you help" instead of "DH SUCKS DH SUCKS DH SUCKS," he would have gotten a much better response.

AND NO, THEY COULDNT HELP HIM ***FIND A HOST AND MOVE*** ***HIS*** SITE. The whole point here is it is... HIS site, not theirs. He paid for a service, they provided said server. His inability or unwillingness to conform his site to the DH TOS, caused termination. He admitted to having talked to support on several occasions, so they had tried to help him solve this issue. He wanted it his way or no way ... so he got it no way, because DH cannot change standards for one customer based on what he wants. Especially if he is talked to support like theyre his toys, they will almost always start to tell him to buzz off.

Finding a host and moving his site is his problem, as DH tried to help him solve the issue and he more then likely refused to conform. He can claim what he likes about DH not giving him what he paid for and blow it on all day, because I for one and the proof they do provide what they say they do. As of now, I have fluxed my sites space from 0 to 300gb, several times, and they havent shut me down. I've run through 2gb of transfer all the way through 1000gb of transfer, and still, not shut down. Hell, I ran a script that caused the mysql server to shut down, and they even FIXED IT FOR ME, and i didnt even receive a warning for that, I just got a "Oh yea, we fixed it for you, see, have a good one."



In reply to:

The defenders in this thread propose the client should know software and its effect on a server. This would be the same as saying you shouldn't goto the doctor unless you already know whats wrong and can prescribe your own medicine. If the host said "one-click installs only" or "No Databases", then he could control the situation. But that's not the market. Michael's 7/30/08 candid comments are acceptable, but he mostly notes overhead caused by errant customers and code. A large ration of hand-holding -is- the market. (Can you imagine the phone calls at AOL when they started...and THEY were using their own program!)


Well, no, not exactly the truth here. If you go to the doctor, you should have a rough idea of where it hurts. Go to the mechanic and you should have a rough idea of what is wrong, otherwise, in both cases, they'll charge you out the ass for testing. And yes, a large portion of the market is to be a hand-holding ass-spanking parent of the customer. But like any parent, after your too dumb to listen for the 5th time about not picking up the toy, they spank you. After the 3rd time spanking you, the toy hits the trash can. They worked with him and he refused to work with them, so they kicked him out and called it a day.

Heck, if he made his way here to complain, he could've made it here to ask for help. We would have helped him. But, instead he chose to complain and argue with other customers who have more time and positive experience with DH. He was in for trouble from post one. (Image this, put a single guy in a Miami Heat jersey in a crowd of 100 LA Lakers fans... What is going to happen? The Heat guy will likely boo the Lakers, and the LA people will kick the crap out of him. This is more or less how this post goes. He knocked on DH, and DH Customers, like he said he was, came to its support.)

Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: e4solo
Posted on: 2008-08-27 21:24:00

sXi --
Please accept this correction to your logic....

/* tweek to your language-of-choice... */
(YourInitialComment) MOD (MyResponse) = "ticket"
(YourInitialComment) MOD (MyResponse) <> "schedule"

But thank you for quoting from the TOS.
/*
.
.
*/
pyr02K1 --
You have exceeded WORP 11,
your dilithium crystals are cracking,
the reactor has a breach,
BEAM OUT dammit, BEAM OUT !



Re: Fortunately, I woke up !

Posted by: seiler
Posted on: 2008-08-27 22:00:00

Why do I doubt that this is your only user name here?

In reply to:

But if his site did not exceed the above parameters, then DH has no case.




Is this your first day on the internet? According to you, kiddie porn would be okay here because it doesn't say "No kiddie porn" on the same line that says "500 GB Disk Storage." It's not like there could be a TOS page somewhere that says kiddie porn is a no-no. I guess kiddie porn can only be banned here once it hits the 501 GB mark, since quantity is the only possible restriction that a host could ever put on how their hard drives are used.

Every host has a TOS page, which every customer agrees to when they sign up, but don't let reality or common sense stop you from enjoying your new troll account. tongue

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