some question about the "perks" we get?

some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: loverboy260
Posted on: 2008-01-30 16:11:00

I know that we get some quite good perks such as 5800GB bandwidth and 534GB webspace. Now how sustainable are they? If we have a site with multiple videos and they are worth say 100GB (webspace) and say 400GB (bandwidth). Now as an example multiply that number with 10-20 dh user.. thats a lot of webspace & bandwidth being used..

The question is how can dreamhost provide us with all this space? and then keep on adding to it?

Another question is the new Private server concept.. If we decide to enable it, do our site get put up on special servers? if that is the case then i feel like cheated as i think all our sites should be put on high speed servers as we are paying for it..

Last question: just why are dh doing so many promocodes, how do they make profit if they get customers who come via promocodes??

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: rlparker
Posted on: 2008-01-30 16:49:00

In reply to:

Now how sustainable are they? If we have a site with multiple videos and they are worth say 100GB (webspace) and say 400GB (bandwidth). Now as an example multiply that number with 10-20 dh user.. thats a lot of webspace & bandwidth being used..The question is how can dreamhost provide us with all this space? and then keep on adding to it?


It's called "overselling" by some and "just in time provisioning" by others. wink

In reply to:

Another question is the new Private server concept.. If we decide to enable it, do our site get put up on special servers?


Yes.

In reply to:

if that is the case then i feel like cheated as i think all our sites should be put on high speed servers as we are paying for it..


If you feel cheated by that then you either have not read what the PS servers are all about, or you just are not paying attention.

First of all, the "special" part of the PS servers is *not* just a "high speed" server, it's about the the RAM/CPU and resource management. Secondly, you are *not* paying for it unless you are paying for a PS account - what you are "paying for" is a shared server account. Strangely enough, depending upon the "load" pf your shared server, you may actually end up with *more* resources being available to you most of time then you would have using a lower configured PS server, and not have to pay an extra cent for the privilege.

A "Private Server" reserves resources for your exclusive use while a shared server requires you share.wink

In reply to:

Last question: just why are dh doing so many promocodes, how do they make profit if they get customers who come via promocodes??


Maybe because they want to grow and realize increasing economies of scale? It might be possible that, even if they don't make much profit from a first year promo deal, they *can* make money from long-term customers who stay and pay the standard billing rates (but I'm just guessing!).

--rlparker

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: patricktan
Posted on: 2008-01-30 17:21:00

In reply to:

Now how sustainable are they?


I like the word "just in time provision". Somebody has tried to used up 200GB disk space and they succeeded. So if you really need that much space, don't worry. They will give you the space as they promised.

In reply to:

if that is the case then i feel like cheated as i think all our sites should be put on high speed servers as we are paying for it.


I don't think anybody is cheated. I don't think private server runs faster than normal server in terms of CPU speed and hard disk speed. It is better in terms of better management of CPU and RAM resources. Don't forget that we are still in a shared server.

In reply to:

Last question: just why are dh doing so many promocodes, how do they make profit if they get customers who come via promocodes?


Like rlparker mentioned, they look for long-term benefit. They welcome you to try their hosting with the best smile on their face. If you are satisfied and decide to stay, here the business comes.

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: Lensman
Posted on: 2008-01-30 20:24:00

In reply to:

The question is how can dreamhost provide us with all this space? and then keep on adding to it?


DH can support any one person - or even a bunch of people using all their space. If everyone suddenly used all their space, there would be trouble - that is, DH would have to buy a lot of disks and start losing money.

Consider the provisioning of electricity. Does the electrical grid have the capability to supply everyone with electricity should everyone turn on every electrical device that they have? No, the grid would brown out or selectively shut down service. Should the grid be designed to generate enough power to handle that situation? No, because the probability of that occurring is so minuscule as to be not worth paying for.

In reply to:

Another question is the new Private server concept.. If we decide to enable it, do our site get put up on special servers? if that is the case then i feel like cheated as i think all our sites should be put on high speed servers as we are paying for it..


As others have said, the servers themselves have the same physical specs as the other servers at DH, they just run Lixux VServer which allows them to guarantee a certain amount of memory and CPU to individual accounts (as represented by virtual servers). These dedicated resources are costly and you pay extra for the guarantee that they will be available to you when you need them.

In reply to:

Last question: just why are dh doing so many promocodes, how do they make profit if they get customers who come via promocodes??


The economics of promo codes is actually related to the economics of affiliate programs. Acquiring a new customer is profitable enough in the long run to make it worth paying extra marketing money to obtain that new customer. I'd guess that the low-cost shared web hosting business is willing to pay between $50 and $150 for each new customer. DH pays $97 for each new customer. The "cost" of the promo code actually comes straight out of the referral fee for the affiliate. From the DH perspective, they pay out the same amount for each referred customer regardless of whether they use a promo code or not.

So who loses in this scheme? I think it is the professional marketers. Because of the way promo codes work at DH, it tends to be much more profitable for professional marketers to promote the other web hosts who have schemes that richly reward the marketers much more than the actual customer who is signing up. In practice, the Dreamhost system makes it less lucrative to refer them and more lucrative to refer people to other hosts.

Is this fair? Well, I can't speak to it's fairness, but the policy is a really great deal for new customers!

What are 50DISK50, 3DOM50, and 1IP1DOM50?
They're Dreamhost coupons!

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: seiler
Posted on: 2008-01-30 22:05:00

In reply to:

Does the electrical grid have the capability to supply everyone with electricity should everyone turn on every electrical device that they have? No, the grid would brown out or selectively shut down service.


The funny thing is that you don't even have to leave the hosting topic to make more examples. It seems most that bash overselling are just hosts that can't compete on price.

What's not oversold? Imagine if everyone submitted a support ticket at the same time... or called, if a host offers phone support. If you have 10 - 50 employees and 10,000 customers, it would appear that support is always oversold.

Luckily, that never happens, which is why it works.

Plus the bandwidth is oversold, so even if a host didn't oversell, that doesn't mean everyone in the DC could hammer the bandwidth around the clock. tongue

I believe Michael stated here before that over 99% of the customers use less than 1% of the resources. Sounds like they've got a grasp on basic math and how to make a profit. wink

On the flip side, a kid that signs up for a budget reseller account & tries to go compete with Dreamhost (or any of the big names), would quickly learn a hard lesson. Never bring a reseller account to a 1,500+ server fight.

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: kenlucid
Posted on: 2008-01-30 22:36:00

To be honest our current needs for website hosting is very minimal - we only need a website where people can download pdf files relating to their securities.

However Dreammhost still offered a cheaper rate than a number of other hosts. The biggest plus for me when we chose DH was that they do allow all that space, and most of all you can have unlimited email addresses, with the only limitation being your overall hosting limits.

Our previous host charged more and allowed 150MBs of space, 10 GB of bandwidth a month, 5 email address and only 20mbs per email address. All well and good in a quite month with nobody travelling but quickly became inadequate later on.

Knowing that I have all that extra space and bandwidth is a comfot buffer for me. Plus in the event we decide to move onto bigger things website wise, its nice to know I dont' have to go looknig at upgrading anything just to allow for some more space.

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: seiler
Posted on: 2008-01-30 23:05:00

Plus, it's hard to convince people to pay more for less, which is basically what hosts are trying to do when they trash-talk overselling competitors, rather than try to sell themselves on their own strengths.

Their argument usually goes something like, "Why pay them $9.95/month for a billion GB of diskspace, if you can only use 80% of it, when you could just give us $40/month for 50 GB that you can use 100% of?" One problem with that argument is that there are Dreamhost customers using more resources than any of them offer and paying less for it. Personally, I prefer overselling over overcharging, which is basically the other extreme. wink

You could also think of it like an all-you-can-eat buffet, sorta. Most people don't eat what should be 5 meals at one sitting and the buffet price is profitable for most people. The fat guy eating 12 plates of crab legs at the Golden Dragon is not the average customer. Oh great, now I'm hungry. tongue

But you can be sure that none of those restaurants want the whole town to starve themselves for a week, all at the same time, then come in and see how much they can eat for their $9.95. Damn those evil oversellers! laugh

I'm not saying DH or any other big overseller is the right choice for everyone, but I'd never make a decision based on overselling. I want my my hosts to be profitable, so I don't have to worry about them going bankrupt every time a silly multi-million dollar billing error pops up!

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: deke
Posted on: 2008-01-31 11:20:00

Giving people *vastly* more space than they need, and *vastly* more bandwidth than they need isn't unfair. It's "insurance", in case your site gets slash-dotted, or better yet, becomes incredibly popular.

After all, disk space and bandwidth are pretty inexpensive these days. The BIG costs in a hosting business are
* acquiring customers (typically $100+/customer)
* business office support (typically $20+/problem)
* tech support (typically $35+/problem)

What's more, the longer someone is a customer, the less likely they are to need support, so by giving people higher limits for sticking around eliminates the cost of acquiring a replacement customer and the much higher support costs for that new customer.

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: pangea33
Posted on: 2008-01-31 19:10:00

Agreed... "just in time provisioning" is my new favorite term for the rest of the day or whatever.

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: eike
Posted on: 2008-01-31 19:12:00

Well, diskspace is still somewhat expensive in the ranges DH is offering them. You can't just take the price of one 500gb hdd and assume that the cost of offering you 500gb at DH. If you actually use 500g, you can be almost certain that at the very least two copies exist of those 500g, since at DHs quantities, disk churn becomes a real problem -- you expect harddisks to fail, and you don't want your customers to even notice. If you assume $100 for one 500gb hardisk, you are already talking two of those to handle 500gb of actual data (plus backup overhead; in the worst case this will be another 500gb-1000gb, but in the average case it will a WHOLE lot less and almost negligible. For the sake of this argument, assume two 500gb discs for 500gb of storage (=$200). That's the cost of the harddisks. You are also going to need a case to put them into, rackspace to put that case into, and controllers to drive those drives in that rack. This can easily add another $10-20 per harddisk, possibly more. Then you are going to need to get power to those harddisks, cool the racks, and make sure you have UPS. This will be even more costs.

$250-300 initial cost (and this is optimistic) per 500gb block, plus quite a bunch per month to keep those running smoothly isn't too far-fetched. So a single customer using all the provided space will easily cost DH a bundle of money.

Thing is, the vast majority of users are not using 500gb of space, nor even close to it. Some are (and that's fine -- good reviews, recommendations, etc. come from those people), most aren't. Even if you are currently in the latter category and suddenly need 500 gigs of space -- no problem. There is always enough spare capacity to handle a few people doing this over night. There is never enough spare capacity to handle EVERYBODY doing this overnight, but that never happens.

Bandwidth follows similar rules. The initial costs are already sunk when you set up a server (and it's a bit harder to spell it out in numbers per customer); usually, however, a single server has a 100mbit interface to the DH network. If you WERE to use 5tb of traffic, you would use an average of around 16mbit/s of that (and since traffic is almost never average, you'll probably be using twice that during busy times of the day). It just takes 3-5 customers doing this to max out a single network interface. Then again, this almost never happens; the vast majority of sites on the internet use less than 1 gigabyte of traffic in a month, let alone 1 terabyte. Similar things to disk usage apply.
(it is also quite a lot harder to prove that your network interface is congested and you are not able to even use all your traffic in a month; this MAY happen, but probably doesn't very often. However, proof-wise, slow speeds can often equally well attributed to broken routes or upstream problems DH has no control over.
Also, DH could not handle it if, overnight, all their customers were to start taking advantage of all that traffic afforded. Then again, that never happens.

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: theraven
Posted on: 2008-01-31 19:16:00

I would rather use 1% of my monthly bandwidth than worry every month that I'm going to go over and pay their ridiculously high overage charges.

$23.95 per month (Code Monster) to use 1% vs $40 per month and worry that I'm going to pay another $40 in overage charges?

I'll take my chances with overselling thank you. :)

Visit me, please...
www.theraven7.com

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: theraven
Posted on: 2008-01-31 19:19:00

In reply to:

you can be almost certain that at the very least two copies exist of those 500g



DH has 6 backups at any given time in a hidden directory named ".snapshot".

Visit me, please...
www.theraven7.com

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: sdayman
Posted on: 2008-01-31 19:50:00

Snapshots only record the diffs between what's in your directory, and what's changed. It's usually set to about 10% of total disk space. But since it's a RAID, there are a couple of spare drives per shelf, so there's maybe a 20% overhead in disk hardware.

-Scott

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: theraven
Posted on: 2008-01-31 19:56:00

They are full backups, near as I can tell. I accidentally deleted a directory once and copied the files from the .snapshot directory. If it were a "diff" directory, I would think that that wouldn't work.

Visit me, please...
www.theraven7.comEdited by theraven on 01/31/08 08:14 PM (server time).

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: rlparker
Posted on: 2008-01-31 20:17:00

In reply to:

They are real files. I accidentally deleted a directory once and copied the files from the .snapshot directory. If it were a "diff" directory, I would think that that wouldn't work.


Well, the are "real files" in pretty much every way that actually matters to *you* (you can manipulate them to recover your data), but Scott is correct about them not taking the full space of the "file" you "see" represented in that snapshot directory.

They are *like* a diff in that only changes are actually taking "real space" (somewhere in the file system!) when recorded in each of the snapshot dirs; the actual way it is managed is does not really produce duplicate copies of files that are identical in each of the snapshot directories (it's "automagical"! wink

--rlparker

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: theraven
Posted on: 2008-01-31 20:26:00

Cool. I like automagical. :)

Visit me, please...
www.theraven7.com

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: theraven
Posted on: 2008-01-31 20:43:00

This is from DH support. We are both right.

Might be the same explanation as the previous post, but different wording.

"When a snapshot is taken it makes a copy, subsequent snapshots only keep track of diff's between the older snapshot and the
more recent one (to avoid redundancy). In the event of data loss you can
copy the files from the snapshots back into your main directory completely in tact."

Visit me, please...
www.theraven7.com

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: eike
Posted on: 2008-02-01 03:49:00

No. Those are quite definitely not actual copies of the data, but rather lazy copies (depending on how you look at it you could explain this as "the storage layer actually "just" stores the differences between that 'backup' and the current version of the data". DH does most certainly not copy all your data once an hour.

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: eike
Posted on: 2008-02-01 03:49:00

... and why would you think that ?

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: eike
Posted on: 2008-02-01 03:51:00

I'm still pretty sure such a "snapshot" is just going to be a lazy copy with copy-on-write mechanics -- anything else would just take way too many resources.

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: sdayman
Posted on: 2008-02-01 06:14:00

In reply to:

"When a snapshot is taken it makes a copy, subsequent snapshots only keep track of diff's between the older snapshot and the
more recent one (to avoid redundancy). In the event of data loss you can
copy the files from the snapshots back into your main directory completely in tact."



This response surprises me. And not just because they can't spell "intact."
It makes me want to ask, "Which of those snapshots that ultimately get rolled off the system was the complete copy?"

If you've administered a NetApp, you'd get to dig around and see how it allocates space, and *complete* backups is not it. If you wipe a directory, then that's considered a change, and it's written to the snapshot before the directory goes away.

-Scott

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: scjessey
Posted on: 2008-02-01 06:51:00

Now my head hurts.

-- si-blog --

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: supernova
Posted on: 2008-02-01 09:00:00

In reply to:

Last question: just why are dh doing so many promocodes, how do they make profit if they get customers who come via promocodes??


I think it will be a long term case. If any customers renew their hosting plans, they cannot apply any promo codes anymore.

Supernova


Check out instructions on how to apply the code !


Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: deke
Posted on: 2008-02-01 13:55:00

In reply to:


If you assume $100 for one 500gb hardisk, you are already talking two of those to handle 500gb of actual data


No, you're not. If you stripe data across 9 drives in a RAID array, you store 8 drives' capacity on those 9 drives with no worries about disks crashing, because you can hot-swap any one drive without losing *any* data.

Moreover, the average hard drive lasts about four years, and it only gets retired because it's too small, not because it has crashed. Amortized, the cost of that 500 GB storage figures to about $2 per month.

The big expenses in running a web-hosting company are customer acquisition and customer support costs, because they are *expenses*, rather than capital investments.

Someone who's been at Dreamhost for a couple of years is usually a profitable customer to have, even if he's got 300GB of files stored. It's the new customer, paying for 500GB of files, but storing only 3 MB, that's the unprofitable one, because he has so many questions.

The challenge for New Dream Networks is to keep the new customer happy, so he becomes a profitable customer.


Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: Lensman
Posted on: 2008-02-01 14:17:00

I think the cost of 500 GB of enterprise storage on a NetApp FAS6080 or FAS6040 is more than $2 per month over 4 years.

What are 50DISK50, 3DOM50, and 1IP1DOM50?
They're Dreamhost coupons!

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: eike
Posted on: 2008-02-01 15:05:00

Surely you do not mean stripe, since that would be disastrous if even just one disk failed.

Sure you COULD do a RAID5 with n+1 disks (and 8+1 parity is really pushing it). However, I'd be surprised if all told, the DH storage per 500gb chunk was less than two harddrives all told (including hot spares, backup, etc.)

We did not really talk about amortization. You are correct, 3-5 years is the regular lifespan for a drive (and it does not get retired due to size, but rather due to increasing odds of failure).

I also never claimed that HD space was the MAJOR cost of running a webhosting business; AVERAGE usage over all customers is FAR below the maximum possible. However, you DO have $150-$300 of sunk cost for every 500gb of actual space you have to provide; You can amortize it over 4 years all you want, it's gone for now. You are quite right that hardware is a capital investment -- however it's not a fixed cost of your business, but rather one dependant on your number of customers (quite linearly, really, unless you need to stamp out another data center :)

And indeed, acquisition is a decent cost (though opinions on this vary; there are plenty of companies not paying a single cent to acquire customers, but rather (rather successfully) rely on word-of-mouth. You won't usually find them in the market of webhosts competing on price.

Support is virtually the same as hardware needs -- you don't pay your support personnel by incident, but rather have them salaried. Whether they sit around all day or are doing stuff all day does not matter, cost-wise. Optimally you want them doing something all day -- and you are only going to need more employees to keep the same level of service if you get more customers. Salaries don't amortize, but support spent on a single customer does (as you rightly noted).

The worst possible customer cost-wise would be the guy uploading 500 gigs in the first week, using 5 tb of traffic on the dot in a month, and sending a support query every day or two for months. Those guys do exist, but there are also those who pretty much never ask support for anything and just use a small part of the stuff they are allowed to (having owned a (albeit smaller) webhost, I can tell you that for sure; it pretty much evens out. The guy that asks every couple of days will not stop, though, even after 3 years.

The challenge is to keep all their customers happy, or at least most of them. Generally you do that by providing excellent service and NOT looking at the bottom line and profitability on every single account, anyway (so long as the overall business is still generating profit) -- i.e. even if a support problem takes an hour to solve and is not STRICTLY in the purview of the hoster, it may be a good idea to solve it anyway (and if you really have to justify that to an accountant, put it under "new customer acquisition" :-)

The fact remains that a customer using 500 gigs of space and 5 tb of bandwidth will, in all likelihood, cost more than the 8 bucks DH gets from him per month.

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: eike
Posted on: 2008-02-01 15:59:00

Don't worry, he's just talking about lazy copies. Just be lazy and you'll understand the mindset :P

gen reply

Posted by: loverboy260
Posted on: 2008-02-02 14:40:00

thanks everyone for answering me..

Regarding promocodes again for every referal you could possibly get $97.. and if you look at it each new "subscription/signup" to dh only cost like $23 more.. so say if i referred 10 people thats easily $970 to me so again thats a very big loss to dh..

AND whats to stop people registering for one year, cancel their account, get a new credit card (use friends) and then register again this way they will be treated as new members and will still get promocodes.. ?

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: deke
Posted on: 2008-02-02 14:47:00

You can "think", Lensman, or you can spend five minutes with a search engine to check the facts.

A fully-populated NAS6080 runs about $200,000, according to http://searchstorage.techtarget.co.uk/news/article/0,289142,sid181_gci1292076,00.html

That's 1176TB of storage - $1.77 per 500GB per month, amortized over 4 years.



Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: deke
Posted on: 2008-02-02 15:15:00

I *do* mean stripe. That's what we did at CompuServe (and I worked there when it was on top. CompuServe built their own servers (designed by System Concepts, using RAID-5 technology licensed from Maxtor.)

No, it wasn't a catastrophe when a single drive failed. There was no data lost, and no interruption of service. They unplugged the bad drive, and plugged in a new one, and within a short while, the new drive contained all the data that the failed drive had contained. Parity bits work *very* well for that sort of thing.

The question we started off was "how can DreamHost afford to give 500GB of space to begin with, and then increase it 20% per year". You say "I also never claimed that HD space was the MAJOR cost of running a webhosting business" but you're disputing my assertion that it's not.

The reasons DreamHost can afford to do it is because provisioning accounts is not a major cost for web hosting companies, and because hardware costs keep dropping, competitors' prices keep dropping, and they need to remain competitive.





Re: gen reply

Posted by: sdayman
Posted on: 2008-02-02 15:19:00

You can't re-use a domain here once it's been set up under an account. They log all domains that have been set up here to prevent exactly what you propose.

-Scott

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: Lensman
Posted on: 2008-02-02 16:02:00

I'm not quite sure how you're getting your figures:

In reply to:

The typical price for fully populated FAS6000 series arrays is around $300,000 to $400,000.


So that's $250-$340 per raw terabyte of storage just for the initial hardware purchase, which, amortized over 4 years comes out to $5.20-$7.08 per TB per month (or $2.60-$3.54 per 500GB) according to your methodology. This doesn't count data center cost, incremental power cost of 10 watts per terabyte, or administrative overhead. Netapps own documentation quotes their systems as "low overhead" with "Management" and "Downtime" costs that equal the actual hardware purchase cost.

As another benchmark, Amazon charges $0.15 per GB per month for their S3 web service for storage in the US and $0.18 per GB per month in Europe. That's $75 per month for 500GB. The difference between the amount they charge in the US and EU for 500GB comes out to $15 per month - and they say that it reflects the difference between their costs in the two locations.

What are 50DISK50, 3DOM50, and 1IP1DOM50?
They're Dreamhost coupons!

Re: gen reply

Posted by: rlparker
Posted on: 2008-02-02 17:24:00

In reply to:

..you could possibly get $97.. and if you look at it each new "subscription/signup" to dh only cost like $23 more.. so say if i referred 10 people thats easily $970 to me so again thats a very big loss to dh..


Part of the flaw in your thinking is that "possibly" getting $97 per referral, and "easily" getting $97 per referral are too very different things. wink

With all the "max discount" promo codes lying about littering the landscape, you are likely to find it very difficult to actually get $97 for most, if any, referrals. DH "foregoing income" of "n" dollars costs them a lot less than *paying you 'n' dollars* (re-read about "over-selling" again, if that logic escapes you).

Even if DH did end up paying you a full $970.00 for 10 referrals (which is unlikely), they have done the math, and wouldn't be doing if it didn't make business sense for them, or if that $97 was not an "acceptable" cost to acquire a new account (even with the "one-year-and-cancel" accounts considered). You not understanding the arithmetic involved doesn't make it a bad plan; it just indicates you and DreamHost have a different perception of the realistic cost of acquiring a new customer. So far, the growth and success of DreamHost leads me to think they have a pretty good grasp of that reality. wink

In reply to:

AND whats to stop people registering for one year, cancel their account, get a new credit card (use friends) and then register again this way they will be treated as new members and will still get promocodes.. ?


You mean besides the fact that doing that would be fraud? DH has systems in-place to identify and mitigate many types of "fraudulent" account registrations, including most of the variations you mention. wink

--rlparker

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: michael
Posted on: 2008-02-02 18:16:00

This figure significantly underestimates the price of storage by an order of magnitude. Storage arrays in a setting such as ours are limited by performance before space. You have to look at the performance benchmarks for specific configurations in order to have any idea of costs. The number of spindles, the data on the disk, and the type/amount of file access are all important.

(also think striped, w/ distributed dual disk parity)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RAID_6.svg

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: eike
Posted on: 2008-02-02 20:06:00

When you use "stripes" and "striping" alone and refer to "RAID" without any qualification thereof, any reasonable individual will assume you are talking about RAID-0 -- which WILL yield catastrophic results when even just a single drive fails.
RAID5 ist the one that introduces parity to the whole thing, but you pretty much never hear RAID5 referred to as "striped raid" but rather "raid5" or something with parity. You sometimes hear the term "raid5 stripes", but even that is a bit exotic.

I know how raid5 etc. work. In fact, I can probably explain the math behind it off the top of my head. :)

Yes, RAID5 works very well; however, you still "only" have protection against single disk failure within the set (there are other raid levels/modes that'll provide resilience against any two drives failing while not requiring full mirroring as well); Using 9 drives in a single raid5 set is already something I'd have trouble justifying unless you have a higher level filesystem making sure everything is mirrored somewhere else still.

The question started out as "how do they do it", the answer is "overselling", and we went into discussion about what it would actually cost if the hdd space was NOT, in fact, oversold, but the 500 promised gb actually allocated for each and every customer. If you remember, I also noted that this is a hypothetical problem since the majority of users will only use a tiny fraction of the space provided.
The reason DH can afford to do this EVEN IF 500gb of diskspace cost a crapload of money to provision (well ok, $200-300 all told is not a crapload) is overselling, "just-in-time" provisioning, and presumably decent economies of scale w.r.t. actual hardware acquisition.

I remain of the opinion that, were everybody to use all the space provided, the monthly fees would not cover the costs incurred -- and hdd space would be a major part of that cost.

Edited by eike on 02/02/08 08:11 PM (server time).

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: sXi
Posted on: 2008-02-02 20:29:00

In reply to:

(also think striped, w/ distributed dual disk parity)


We're backed by RAID6 ? shocked

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: seiler
Posted on: 2008-02-02 21:55:00

In reply to:

there are plenty of companies not paying a single cent to acquire customers, but rather (rather successfully) rely on word-of-mouth.




Oh... you must be talking about those hosts that don't show up on "top hosts" lists. laugh



In reply to:

The fact remains that a customer using 500 gigs of space and 5 tb of bandwidth will, in all likelihood, cost more than the 8 bucks DH gets from him per month.


Quit being so negative... you're supposed to focus on the server next to the one that guy's on, which has 1,000 customers doing nothing. wink

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: michael
Posted on: 2008-02-02 22:10:00

In many cases yes. All of our storage is not guaranteed to be though.

Re: gen reply

Posted by: TryToBeLucky
Posted on: 2008-02-03 11:03:00

In reply to:

You can't re-use a domain here once it's been set up under an account. They log all domains that have been set up here to prevent exactly what you propose.


Except you delete the domain from your account, and use it under another account - which you pay fully without any promo code or via referral.

TTL


Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: TryToBeLucky
Posted on: 2008-02-03 11:06:00

In reply to:

In many cases yes.


Sorry, I don't understand.

Is that mean that some of your data is non recoverable when there is a crash ?


TTL

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: sdayman
Posted on: 2008-02-03 11:39:00

In reply to:

Is that mean that some of your data is non recoverable when there is a crash ?



*My* data is recoverable when there's a crash. I keep backups at home. Should I do something mildly stupid here, there's a good chance that my data is easily recovered via snapshot or rolling SQL backups. If not, then I'll live and use my local backup for a restore.

I think Michael's comment meant that some NetApps may use something other than RAID 6.

-Scott

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: Lensman
Posted on: 2008-02-03 12:06:00

In reply to:

I think Michael's comment meant that some NetApps may use something other than RAID 6.


Well, some (many?) of the mySQL servers use local disks rather than NAS.

I'd also imagine that since NetApp only introduced dual parity RAID (RAID 6) pretty recently - a couple of years ago, I think, that not every DH NAS uses it, unless DH did a complete refresh recently.

BTW, that would not mean that the data is not recoverable. Remember that RAID 5 and 6 (as well as the mirroring RAIDs) aren't about recoverability, but about redundancy. Backups are taken daily irrespective of the high-availability filesystems being used.

Besides, as Scott says, we should all be taking our own backups of our critical data.

What are 50DISK50, 3DOM50, and 1IP1DOM50?
They're Dreamhost coupons!

Re: some question about the "perks" we get?

Posted by: digitalvibe
Posted on: 2008-02-03 18:37:00

I do daily backups of web and database and have various ways of storing them.

Sometimes via ftp, sometimes as simply as emailing the backups to a gmail account - free and saves on my own internet usage - good quality ISPs in UK restrict download amounts each month.

As a matter of practice, every backup I make gets encrypted... backups of the key are kept in secure vaulted storage.

Cheers,
Karl

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